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HDT Dragon Tails

hdt physics equip dragon tail

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#41
boo

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Any tips / tutorials on where to start with creating my own havoc xml from scratch?


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#42
jacques00

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Any tips / tutorials on where to start with creating my own havoc xml from scratch?

I want to eventually learn how to create them using 3DS Max with Canderes' tutorials, but in the meantime, I have been using the Just For Fun tool. Hope this helps!


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#43
b00marrows

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Hey, congratulations on succeeding with the tails. I have been watching the thread waiting for you to add beast tails.

 

Ill probably have allot to say and ask in the future, i will start with this:

 

Where are the Xml's for the beast tails? XD you seem to have no packaged them!

My bad seems my anti-virus decided to hide them while it scanned them without asking... looks like another antivirus bites the dust.

 

EDIT:

OK, had a look. not bad! this is looking great so far!

 

A few tip's / idea's:

1. I highly recommend you switch to using the HDT Tail bone's that Groovtama recently added to his skeleton

2. Tails Don't usually twist, remove the twisting and you should get some more accurate results in your numbers/movement.

 

I will help out in any way I can, I look forward to your development!


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#44
jacques00

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Hey, congratulations on succeeding with the tails. I have been watching the thread waiting for you to add beast tails.

Thanks, it was a very tedious process!

 

A few tip's / idea's:

1. I highly recommend you switch to using the HDT Tail bone's that Groovtama recently added to his skeleton

2. Tails Don't usually twist, remove the twisting and you should get some more accurate results in your numbers/movement.

 

I will help out in any way I can, I look forward to your development!

1. I will definitely see--I may make an alternate download for those using Groovetama's skeleton. The time-consuming part will be re-binding the meshes to the new bone chains (simple), creating the .xml's for each tail (also simple, but very tedious), and testing and refining (the most time consuming part!).

 

2. Indeed--I felt the twisting was a bit unnatural too, but I would rather minimize them than to get rid of them completely--I tend to have recurring glitches when I go under or over a certain range of values (some numbers not mixing well with others, I guess).

 

If you want to dissect this mod and improve on it, feel free. I'll try to answer any questions you may have. For now, I think I'll take a break from delving too far into this mod until I have the time and interest to pursue it. I do want to include working collisions like you had going for your mod, but because of physics stability issues, that will be on hiatus until I can find the correct values that can play well with collisions without glitching. On my test runs, the physics usually performs well in enclosed spaces; but once I move the character out onto Skyrim and near multiple HDT-tailed characters or near thick waterfalls, the physics tend to freak out out and not look pretty. I'm hoping there will be a solution eventually...

 

Thank you for your interest!


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#45
jacques00

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Would it be possible to see if a Kaleen race tail could be done from the nexus?

 

http://www.nexusmods...rim/mods/8464/?

 

Okay, I just posted a replacer mod for the tails on the opening post. I haven't tested it, so I don't know if it works at all. Please try it out and let me know of your results. Remember to back up any files just in case something goes wrong.

 

Hope this helps!


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#46
farranya

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I used to have tail deleted because it did not work with custom animations well but your mod works very good.

 

Thank you ^_^


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#47
b00marrows

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I have been studying your tail files recently, I'm confused as to why you made a custom tail with custom bones.

"POS TailBoneXX" these are custom bones you rigged together using the tail spine bone's, is there a reason you had to do this?

 

On a side note... I think i can see what I was doing wrong...


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#48
jacques00

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I have been studying your tail files recently, I'm confused as to why you made a custom tail with custom bones.

"POS TailBoneXX" these are custom bones you rigged together using the tail spine bone's, is there a reason you had to do this?

That was mainly because I wanted to create a custom tail bone chain with more bones in comparison to the original skeleton. This was so the user wouldn't have to download a specific skeleton to get the tail working--also some skeleton packages have separate skeletons for human and beast races, so there's no guarantee that a tail bone chain would exist (which would lead to CTD errors). For each tail chain, my intention was on giving each tail custom lengths and rebind them to their own chains, but I didn't have the time to do that, so I left them all the same length (maybe in a future update if I have more time for it).

 

The reason why I made separate nodes, one with the prefix POS and the other NPC, was one was designated for binding physics to, and the other was for binding the mesh to--this is for anyone who wanted to custom fit their tails without fudging up the binds, they just need to offset the nodes a little (though collision locations might not align properly after the move). None of the bones in the tail chain are named like the ones on the vanilla skeleton, so hopefully there are no clashes there.

 

On a side note... I think i can see what I was doing wrong...

That's good to hear. If there's anything specific you'd like to ask, I'll try to help to the best of my knowledge.


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#49
Maelstrius

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Alright, so I've redownloaded this, and it worked..until again the tail spazzed out. I'm thinking, is it because the butt of my character has HDT? the jiggle of it? 

Attached Files


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#50
jacques00

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Alright, so I've redownloaded this, and it worked..until again the tail spazzed out. I'm thinking, is it because the butt of my character has HDT? the jiggle of it? 

 

Nah, it shouldn't be because HDT is on your character, that shouldn't be too much of a problem, especially if you haven't gone in the tails' .xml and activated the collision data. I think I will restate that there are numerous variables on what affects real-time physics. I'm not sure how old your hardware is, but the physics performance is determined by how well your machine calculates and juggles values around. So the more fluidly your graphics processor can calculate, the better performance you will have, and thus better results (less glitching out). I've noticed if I play Skyrim with minimal amount of programs running in the background, the HDT tails tend to perform very well--once I start using up my GPU/CPU, like working in graphics programs and video streaming/capturing, the tails tend to spazz out more often. I don't have definitive proof of the connection, but I will make the assumption that using up the GPU, no matter how excessive, takes it's toll on the HDT physics calculations (HDT_PE is a very sensitive indivdual, and you have to treat her right or she'll get all emotional).

 

Aside from hardware, I've made some observations while working with the tails and cross-referencing other HDT_PE-related projects and I will try to lay them out here so anyone working with HDT_PE can try to resolve the spazzing issue, if possible. When creating a skeleton for HDT_PE use, I always take note of how the relative coordinate system is and how things are oriented from bone to bone. In the HDT tails and Raging Horse projects, the bones are aligned in a perfectly horizontal chain. I think this may be why the tails glitch out moreso than objects with bone chains lined diagonally or vertically (like hair, skirts, dresses, etc).

 

Of course, regardless of collisions, HDT physics performs very well with single-bone setups (like the ever popular boob, butt, and belly physics), but once the bones are hooked into a chain, HDT physics likes to go nuts. This basically happens because the bone being affected by the physics is parented to another bone also affected by physics, so that particular bone needs to rely on another set of dynamic variables (instead of static variables--coordinates, math, physics and all that jazz)--that is why if the calculations are interrupted, HDT might accidentally take in jibberish values and the result would be whacked out positioning of bones, creating that spazzing effect. This is why the spazzing starts at the bone immediately after the first parent bone being affected by the physics (otherwise, that parent bone works as it is expected to be).

 

Going back to my bone setups, I think that laying out the bones horizontally possibly creates an issue with the calculation because of how the bones are relatively placed to one another, so each child bone is more prone to something like... dividing by zero or something. I can't say this theory is 100% correct, but I do notice horizontal bone chains screwing up a lot more than non-horizontal ones (if I am wrong, please correct me!). A solution may be to displace and rotate the bones a little and maybe that will help (I haven't done rigorous testing on this, so I cannot say for certain). But regardless of bone placement, having physics set up in a chain to calculate on a real-time system will almost always create some glitching. Somewhere, a variable will encounter a value that just doesn't match up, and each dependent child bone will fudge up because of it, regardless of the limits and restrictions set in place by the government--I mean, the .xml.

 

In the game world, these tails usually perform the best inside a cell, like a house or a inside of a city, but are prone to glitchiness outside in Skyrim or near waterfalls that spawn numerous amounts of particle sprites (because maths and stuff). God-tier computers may have better results with the tails, but I can't say for sure since my machine isn't on that level (and no one with said god-tier computers have reported to me with similar issues). Results will vary and though I can't find a 100% solution, I am trying to reach the magic setup that will give the least amount of troubles as possible on the user-end!
 

If I do get to a good solution, this mod will be updated to reflect the improvements--though I hope this helps for anyone reading!

 

Edit: I also tend to use the hkpGenericContrainData and MOTION_SPHERE_INERTIA since all the other options tend to give me weird results. I can see the benefits of ragdoll and other constraints, but they don't react properly with most values I use.


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#51
Microlich

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Just saying Hi. I'm the newest member of the tail physics gang. I'm very impressed with your mods and am checking them out right now.

I'm looking into procuring 3ds max 2010 or 2012 currently and use the Havok Content Tools and NifTools with it.

In theory this should allow for proper editing, after all.


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#52
jacques00

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Just saying Hi. I'm the newest member of the tail physics gang. I'm very impressed with your mods and am checking them out right now.

I'm looking into procuring 3ds max 2010 or 2012 currently and use the Havok Content Tools and NifTools with it.

In theory this should allow for proper editing, after all.

 

Hello and welcome. There is a lot to be learned and experiment with, but I wish you the best of luck!
 


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#53
Microlich

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Just saying Hi. I'm the newest member of the tail physics gang. I'm very impressed with your mods and am checking them out right now.

I'm looking into procuring 3ds max 2010 or 2012 currently and use the Havok Content Tools and NifTools with it.

In theory this should allow for proper editing, after all.

 

Hello and welcome. There is a lot to be learned and experiment with, but I wish you the best of luck!
 

 

 

Thanks! I've played around with it a bit; it seems fairly easy once you know what you are doing with the tools.

I'm by no means new to 3ds max, but I have little experience with Havok physics and only some with the NIF format.

I'll have to sit through a few of Canderes videos, I think. ;)


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#54
boo

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If you can make physics enabled khajiit / argonian tails which are affected by original animation and make them collide with bodies you deserve all the cookies.


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#55
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If you can make physics enabled khajiit / argonian tails which are affected by original animation and make them collide with bodies you deserve all the cookies.

 

Have you tried the beast race tail replacer file on the main post yet?


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#56
boo

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yeah, but animation is not preserved and there is no collision. I generally like the physical behavior though.


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#57
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I really love this mod, but it doesn't do so well when flying. One my main reasons for installing was to go with the flying mod and animated wings mod. However, when flying "forward" the tail starts to do random stuff and tends remain perpendicular to the body which looks really strange. Is there something I did wrong?


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#58
jacques00

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I really love this mod, but it doesn't do so well when flying. One my main reasons for installing was to go with the flying mod and animated wings mod. However, when flying "forward" the tail starts to do random stuff and tends remain perpendicular to the body which looks really strange. Is there something I did wrong?

Hm... I haven't tried the flying mod to confirm, but I do have a guess that it could be a performance issue. Like if you fly very high, the Skyrim world has to load and pre-load a lot of assets in your character's range of vision so that might mess up how the physics works. I would suggest trying  your flying tests in an interior, if possible, and let me know if you get the same results.

 

Another guess could be that whatever the flying forward behavior is, it could be locking the HDT Physics entirely (but I am doubtful of this, though it does happen in some animations where the player control is disabled). If this is the case, the tails will look frozen for that animation.

 

I don't think you've done anything wrong, it could just be a compatibility/pperformance issue. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!


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#59
eleteguard

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Hm... I haven't tried the flying mod to confirm, but I do have a guess that it could be a performance issue. Like if you fly very high, the Skyrim world has to load and pre-load a lot of assets in your character's range of vision so that might mess up how the physics works. I would suggest trying  your flying tests in an interior, if possible, and let me know if you get the same results.

 

Another guess could be that whatever the flying forward behavior is, it could be locking the HDT Physics entirely (but I am doubtful of this, though it does happen in some animations where the player control is disabled). If this is the case, the tails will look frozen for that animation.

 

I don't think you've done anything wrong, it could just be a compatibility/pperformance issue. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

 

 

Test flight in the interior, same results. The HDT hair/breast/butt all function normally in flight.

 

It seems like the tail should be drawn parallel to the legs in flight but it does every but that. The tail spends more time above the waist then below and I am moving forward. When moving forward with the fligh mod your body tills forward 90 degrees, so if you just took off, you are parallel with the ground. In one test I am managed to get the tail stuck in a "u" shape.


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#60
jacques00

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Test flight in the interior, same results. The HDT hair/breast/butt all function normally in flight.

 

It seems like the tail should be drawn parallel to the legs in flight but it does every but that. The tail spends more time above the waist then below and I am moving forward. When moving forward with the fligh mod your body tills forward 90 degrees, so if you just took off, you are parallel with the ground. In one test I am managed to get the tail stuck in a "u" shape.

Okay, I know what you are experiencing now. It is based on the limits I applied for the .xml. I usually test the tails while the character is in normal poses, like running, walking, standing, etc. Laying back or forward is away from the norm and the .xml doesn't account for that (possibly relying on a relative coordinate system than a global one). I'll see if I can come up with an .xml that can help correct that...

 


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