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HDT Dragon Tails

hdt physics equip dragon tail

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#21
Kalatorni

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Just posted a new update with additional tails (including Khajiits and Argonians). Hope they work!
 

 

 

Awesome! But what HDT you're using in order to avoid jittery/spasms? Do you have skeleton_female enabled/disabled or are there any other reasons that could affect to this?
 


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#22
jacques00

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Awesome! But what HDT you're using in order to avoid jittery/spasms? Do you have skeleton_female enabled/disabled or are there any other reasons that could affect to this?

 

I'm using the one dated at 2014-02-22. But I assume it should work for versions later than that as well. What I've noticed is your mileage may vary when it comes to real-time physics because there are literally numerous variables that affect how the physics performs and reacts in-game based on your setup. Generally speaking, based on my experience, is that the jittery spasms happen when quickly switching the orientation of the character (like running left to right direction instantaneously), or approaching computational heavy areas (like waterfalls and very cluttered or heavily rendered regions, outdoors in Skyrim in certain cells).

 

The tails have their own skeleton and should bind to any character that uses a humanoid skeleton (beast races included), which have the 'NPC Root' and 'NPC Pelvis' nodes. The tail's skeleton is the only thing affected by HDT_PE--but in using the HDT_PE plug-in, be sure to use a compatible skeleton for the sake of the plug-in to work properly, not just the tails. Without HDT_PE, though I haven't tested to confirm, you will just have stiff tails with no movement.
 

Hope this helps!


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#23
Kalatorni

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Heh, I use customized build based on a bit older variant and tails are stiff from the beginning and spasm and twitch a lot :P no wonder something isnt quite compatible. I'm using the latest skeleton (XPMSE).


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#24
jacques00

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Heh, I use customized build based on a bit older variant and tails are stiff from the beginning and spasm and twitch a lot :P no wonder something isnt quite compatible. I'm using the latest skeleton (XPMSE).

 

Ah, depending on how old it is, if it can read .xml's, you might need to open the .xml's and multiply a certain variable by a certain number, but I'm not sure what and if it'll make the tails perform as they should. Sorry I can't suggest much to help, but if you can upgrade the plug-in, I would recommend it.
 


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#25
Kalatorni

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Heh, I use customized build based on a bit older variant and tails are stiff from the beginning and spasm and twitch a lot :P no wonder something isnt quite compatible. I'm using the latest skeleton (XPMSE).

 

Ah, depending on how old it is, if it can read .xml's, you might need to open the .xml's and multiply a certain variable by a certain number, but I'm not sure what and if it'll make the tails perform as they should. Sorry I can't suggest much to help, but if you can upgrade the plug-in, I would recommend it.
 

 

 

Could you attach your working HDT dll + xml files (or if there are more suff in new builds)? That way I could examine if it's only version related.


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#26
boo

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Any chance you can make a version of the khajiit / argonian tails that replaces the vanilla ones and still uses the existing animation + HDT? Also, right now it seems those tails "neutral" position is too high and should be closer to vertical. They should also probably be a good bit heavier. The tails also come out of the butt too high, much higher than vanilla. It would also be awesome if there was collision between tails / bodies / walls, etc. (especially with bodies for all those animations which don't animate tails)

 

Great start though.


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#27
jacques00

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Spoiler

Could you attach your working HDT dll + xml files (or if there are more suff in new builds)? That way I could examine if it's only version related.

Here is the plug-in I have:

Attached File  hdt_2014-02-22.zip   2.92MB   203 downloads

 

I think this was the version right before the version when the plug-in was split into separate files to control certain settings. It should contain the .dll and the hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml (which includes the belly nodes--but since you have XPMSE, you should be fine). You can replace the hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml with your own if you don't like the settings for it.

 

Any chance you can make a version of the khajiit / argonian tails that replaces the vanilla ones and still uses the existing animation + HDT? Also, right now it seems those tails "neutral" position is too high and should be closer to vertical. They should also probably be a good bit heavier. The tails also come out of the butt too high, much higher than vanilla. It would also be awesome if there was collision between tails / bodies / walls, etc. (especially with bodies for all those animations which don't animate tails)

 

Great start though.

Thanks. I cannot promise those additional changes, but if you or any other modder wants to make it and share, I give my permission to utilize the resources and do so.

 

I am aware the tails are not perfect and are totally reliant on the settings I currently have, but I tried to do what I could. The tails could be loosened a bit more to dangle, but for me the jittery glitches tend to happen more often when I make it that way. If I set the range of values is too high or too low, the physics freak out. The same happens when I turn on the collision properties. There are just too many variables bouncing around that the more that is implemented, the higher the chances of the physics freaking out (for me though, not sure about others).

 

I do acknowledge that the tails (at least for female khajiit and argonians) are a little high up mainly because it was positioned with a CBBE-style body for reference and not the vanilla model. Also, aesthetically, I prefer the base of the tail to be starting at the spine's sacrum than to protrude out from between the two butt cheeks. You can change the positioning of the tail if you like in NifSkope by either moving the mesh and Apply the transform and save; or by simply moving the 'POS TailSpine','POS TailSpine1', and 'Tail Main' bone nodes to the placement you desire and save (Translation Z-axis if you want to move the tail up or down, default is 0, and remember to do it for both _0 and _1 weight).

 

Hope this helps and thanks again!


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#28
Kalatorni

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Here is the plug-in I have:

attachicon.gifhdt_2014-02-22.zip

 

I think this was the version right before the version when the plug-in was split into separate files to control certain settings. It should contain the .dll and the hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml (which includes the belly nodes--but since you have XPMSE, you should be fine). You can replace the hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml with your own if you don't like the settings for it.

 

 

Well, it ended like I kinda expected. After some tests... Good news: tail worked, very nice! Gorgeous even. Bad news: everything else didnt :P

Your dll file and my old customized xml: tail worked, breasts kinda flapped like wings without any movement to trigger...

Both your files: tail worked, other physics didnt (no animation whatsoever).

Tried both tests with and without skeleton_female, that didnt have any effect. I wonder if there's something else that messes up this setting...
 


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#29
ElPsyCongroo

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Well I am not quite like to add a tail to my character but still happy to see this.


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#30
jacques00

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Well, it ended like I kinda expected. After some tests... Good news: tail worked, very nice! Gorgeous even. Bad news: everything else didnt :P

Your dll file and my old customized xml: tail worked, breasts kinda flapped like wings without any movement to trigger...

Both your files: tail worked, other physics didnt (no animation whatsoever).

Tried both tests with and without skeleton_female, that didnt have any effect. I wonder if there's something else that messes up this setting...

 

Hm... I assume it has something to do with your DefaultBBP.xml (since your .xml is older, it might require that multiplier tweak I mentioned earlier), though I don't understand how it won't work with mine. I am assuming you have the latest XPMSE, so how are you using HDT_PE--Are you using it in conjunction with the HDT Havok Object, or all by itself? I am currently using it by itself. Also check if you aren't using a body/cloth/armor mesh .nif linked to a different .xml.

 

I'm not sure what else to suggest, but any more details will be helpful and thanks for testing!


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#31
Kalatorni

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I'm not using havok since I can't get it to work with my existing, customized xml nor I can't transfer values from old xml to collision xml version. I also haven't linked nifs to collision, if that's what you meant.

I use customized 9-28 xml and version 11-11 dll (? dunno I named it 1-11...).

But! I tested again with the latest HDT, and it seemed to work so I think there was an issue somewhere when I tested this last time. It cant be the XPMSE... Now I need to hunt more details regarding this setup... I hope to find the "sweet" spot where I get to keep my customized settings but also this would work...

 

(NSFW)

Edit:

Yep yep, it seems it requires at least 11-10 dll version... but then my 9-28 based xml goes fubar :(


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#32
jacques00

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Yep yep, it seems it requires at least 11-10 dll version... but then my 9-28 based xml goes fubar :(

 

Thanks for the image--I used it as an example image in the first post. I will also note the HDT_PE plug-in version as well.

 

I'm sure you can modify your current .xml to match the movement you had for your older .xml (using the Just For Fun tool), or try to find .xml's you like that are currently posted. If you had collisions and wanted to keep them, you may have to end up using the HDT Havok Object since the plug-in can't apply collisions using the DefaultBBP.xml (an alternate .xml has to be linked to an object's .nif, so you can either link them with each body/cloth/armor or hands/feet, or use the equippable Havok Object).
 

Hope this helps!


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#33
jacques00

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Any chance you can make a version of the khajiit / argonian tails that replaces the vanilla ones and still uses the existing animation + HDT?

 

I just made a quick replacer mod if you want to test it out (see the first post). The .xmls have not been changed, so the movement will be the same as the main mod--however, it should have vanilla placement. I did not link the nodes to respond to the animation of the tail, so you might not see that movement at all (it's HDT_PE movement only at this point). It shouldn't be too hard to add nodes to make it happen, I just don't have the time for it at the moment.

 

Either way, I hope this helps!
 


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#34
boo

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Wait, so how do I go about making the animation affect the movement? And how would I enable collision with bodies / the environment?


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#35
jacques00

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Wait, so how do I go about making the animation affect the movement? And how would I enable collision with bodies / the environment?

 

To make the animation affect the movement, the tail .nif's would need to be edited with extra nodes that have names matching the original tail bone chain from the default skeleton (in this case, adding a 'Tailbone01'in the hierarchy may do the trick, assuming that node has animations tied to it in-game--it would require adding and testing for each bone, and that may take a while).

 

As for collisions, I don't think HDT_PE's collisions work that way. HDT_PE physics can only interact with other HDT_PE collision data. That means other Havok collision boundaries in the game world won't be detected by the bone chain made from HDT_PE unless it is tied to the HDT_PE plugin somehow (like via .xml). So having the tail hit the body is possible if the body had collision data that is defined by an .xml, and same goes for the walls. But by default, if collisions were turned on for the tail, it would not interact with the background elements without having those elements tied to HDT_PE... if that makes any sense.
 


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#36
Kalatorni

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Thanks for the image--I used it as an example image in the first post. I will also note the HDT_PE plug-in version as well.

 

I'm sure you can modify your current .xml to match the movement you had for your older .xml (using the Just For Fun tool), or try to find .xml's you like that are currently posted. If you had collisions and wanted to keep them, you may have to end up using the HDT Havok Object since the plug-in can't apply collisions using the DefaultBBP.xml (an alternate .xml has to be linked to an object's .nif, so you can either link them with each body/cloth/armor or hands/feet, or use the equippable Havok Object).
 

Hope this helps!

 

 

You're welcome, I would have selected a bit more, mm, appropriate image if I would have known that :P some people take offense if they see a bit naked skin.

To continue my ranting... The main problem with xml's is that past versio 11-10 the way hdt physics works changed a bit, so old xml values can't be exported. Even the movement is slightly different, a bit more restricted. It's a tedious trial & error and even though carefully testing different values for hours I can't get even close to my goal *raeg*. Extra tedious as JFF tends to reset certain values, so if you edit xml via notepad and then open it in JFF.... *poof*.

As I'm updating the plugin I think I can just jump to the deep end of the pool while at it and try to add collision as well (Havok breast physics + xml for beginners).

Thanks for your help!

 

Attached File  ScreenShot140.jpg   81.42KB   41 downloads
 


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#37
boo

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Wait, so how do I go about making the animation affect the movement? And how would I enable collision with bodies / the environment?

 

To make the animation affect the movement, the tail .nif's would need to be edited with extra nodes that have names matching the original tail bone chain from the default skeleton (in this case, adding a 'Tailbone01'in the hierarchy may do the trick, assuming that node has animations tied to it in-game--it would require adding and testing for each bone, and that may take a while).

 

As for collisions, I don't think HDT_PE's collisions work that way. HDT_PE physics can only interact with other HDT_PE collision data. That means other Havok collision boundaries in the game world won't be detected by the bone chain made from HDT_PE unless it is tied to the HDT_PE plugin somehow (like via .xml). So having the tail hit the body is possible if the body had collision data that is defined by an .xml, and same goes for the walls. But by default, if collisions were turned on for the tail, it would not interact with the background elements without having those elements tied to HDT_PE... if that makes any sense.
 

 

 

I added the bone nodes, but no animation happens. But then it occurs to me that the mesh probably doesn't have any vertices associated with the bones used for animation, right?
 


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#38
farranya

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Would it be possible to see if a Kaleen race tail could be done from the nexus?

 

http://www.nexusmods...rim/mods/8464/?


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#39
boo

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So, how the heck do you get animation on HDT enabled stuff? I added correct weighting on the mesh for the original bones, but in game you end up with crazy stretching whenever the HDT stuff kicks in.


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#40
jacques00

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So, how the heck do you get animation on HDT enabled stuff? I added correct weighting on the mesh for the original bones, but in game you end up with crazy stretching whenever the HDT stuff kicks in.

 

I just tested it and it is not a simple procedure and really has to do with skeletons and animation information. The animation of the vanilla beast tails consists of the skeleton of the beast race (this is relatively simple to replicate and link up) and Bethesda's BehaviorGraphExtraData (BGED--links to the animation .hkx behavior file). The issue with attaching HDT physics is that once those physics are attached, their movements override the animations dictated in the .hkx file. There will be no errors (at least any that I know of) and the the .hkx file plays as it should--but it won't be visible because the HDT physics is what is controlling the movement of the bone nodes, if that makes any sense. Using different bone setups may enable getting around this issue, but again, it will require testing and then some.
 

As for your stretching issue, it is probably because you have HDT-enabled physics but never anchored your nodes properly. If that is not the case, and you are using my .xmls to control the tails, there will be stretching if you simply just renamed the nodes to match the vanilla bones--since the bone chain I used in creating the tails have more joints and don't match the vanilla skeleton's exactly.

 

My suggestion to you would be to try and create your own tail .xml using the vanilla joint chain (TailBone01 to Tailbone05, with spacing at 14.25 units in the Z-axis between each bone node) and link it up in your vanilla assets. In that way,  you will not have so many diverging variables and you will closer fit the vanilla parameters. I cannot guarantee that you will have both HDT physics and animation playback, but it's a start.


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