[Superseded] Skyrim Slavery Returns!

[aqqh]

I think putting it in The Rift would be an excellent idea. IIRC, slavery was outlawed in Skyrim, Cyrodiil, and the western provinces whereas it's not illegal but merely tolerated in Morrowind and rampant in Black Marsh. So to put the slaver hideout in the Rift means that it would be like the black market forefront of slavery leaking out of Morrowind and Black Marsh - plus it's not like the thieves and corrupted politics there in The Rift would care.

 

 

 

Something i said before - take village of Riverwood for example - there is like 15 people living there. Yet in 1 kilometer radius you got 3 major bandit hideouts, another 3 bandit camps and 1 group of bandits that operate without a camp - overall around 30 bandits.

 

15 normal village folks. 30 bandits all around them.

 

Jarls would be completly desperate to get this problem solved in this way or another. Even better if it would be solved without them having to stretch their forces even thinner. So i dont see any reason why shouldnt they agree to make enslavement of such criminals legal if it would promise to make situation any better.

Becouse whats happening when some crime becomes a serious problem in the society? They make the laws more strict. It would be the same with legalization of slavery.

 

I dont see any reason why Jarl of Markarth for example would oppose the idea of enslavement of the forsworn.

[ZigNewton]

 

Greetings LL!

 

I'm a lurker. I've been doing my lurking for over a year now, and thoroughly enjoying many of your mods. I've finally decided to come out of my silence and try to become a better part of the community. To do this, I plan on creating a mod. Since I have a fair amount of spare time (even over and above my gaming), I thought I should contribute.

 

So then...you probably want to know what I want to do. Well I'm learning how to mod (it's not hard, just a lot to learn and know), so it's going to take me some time to get comfortable with this.

 

It's official, everyone's smarter than me

I had the exact same level of ambition when I first posted here on LL, albeit different mod ideas (smaller ones too, dammit). I was already morbidly discouraged when I realized that half of the gargantuan number of tutorials were either outdated, unfinished, typoed the goddamn script examples, or were just plain wrong, then my short attention span got the better of me and I burned out.

 

/jealousy dump, sorry

 

 

Seriously though, best of luck to you; I've been dying for any kind of stable/semi-completed slavery mod for a long time. My favorite just happened to be Paradise Halls at one time (making a lady bandit my bitch was a huge thing of mine, assigning them jobs and "training" them into complete submission... with whip marks!). With or without caves makes no difference to me, as long as it's stable really.

 

Again, you have this humble newbie's undying support.

Best. Of. Luck!

 

I think there's always a huge demand for slavery (especially PC slavery) mods here at LL.

 

Yeeeeeah, I seem to be in the minority of people who's more interested in NPC Slavery/trading than PC. Not unlike the whole creature thing, there are no female/feminized creatures to "tame". Even by LL standards, I have strange tastes... them's the breaks, I guess XD

[Mygoodness777]

In going to do what is feasible, while providing what the community wants. There is no sense making something big and time consuming if nobody likes it.

 

On the flip side, this is going to take a lot of work, so I am going to create what I want first and then decide what is practical after that.

 

This means the main thrust of this mod is to create a functional PC and NPC slavery mod. It will be basic at first, and grow as I have time. I still haven't even decided what slavery will allow you to do or make happen to you, but we will get there.

[Galacticat42]

 

Something i said before - take village of Riverwood for example - there is like 15 people living there. Yet in 1 kilometer radius you got 3 major bandit hideouts, another 3 bandit camps and 1 group of bandits that operate without a camp - overall around 30 bandits.

 

15 normal village folks. 30 bandits all around them.

 

Jarls would be completly desperate to get this problem solved in this way or another. Even better if it would be solved without them having to stretch their forces even thinner. So i dont see any reason why shouldnt they agree to make enslavement of such criminals legal if it would promise to make situation any better.

Becouse whats happening when some crime becomes a serious problem in the society? They make the laws more strict. It would be the same with legalization of slavery.

 

I dont see any reason why Jarl of Markarth for example would oppose the idea of enslavement of the forsworn.

 

 

There are two reasons for more bandits per villager: first of course, is there's a war going on and bandits are getting brave in stealing. The second reason of course is simply the fact that Bethesda didn't want the player to run out of bandits to kill so quickly.

 

As for slavery in Skyrim, it was the Empire that outlawed it in all of Tamriel but Black Marsh proved unruly and Morrowind simply didn't care. As for Skyrim, many jarls contested the rule but the high king (I think it was Torygg's grandfather - don't quote me on that) wanted to keep the peace and abolished it.

 

 

Come to think of it, the Stormcloaks might welcome back slavery as there was back in Tiber's day.

[aqqh]

Might be wrong but dominion permits slavery and they have quite a lot of influence on the empire laws.

[Adam Jensen]

 

 

 

I think putting it in The Rift would be an excellent idea. IIRC, slavery was outlawed in Skyrim, Cyrodiil, and the western provinces whereas it's not illegal but merely tolerated in Morrowind and rampant in Black Marsh. So to put the slaver hideout in the Rift means that it would be like the black market forefront of slavery leaking out of Morrowind and Black Marsh - plus it's not like the thieves and corrupted politics there in The Rift would care.

 

 

 

Something i said before - take village of Riverwood for example - there is like 15 people living there. Yet in 1 kilometer radius you got 3 major bandit hideouts, another 3 bandit camps and 1 group of bandits that operate without a camp - overall around 30 bandits.

 

15 normal village folks. 30 bandits all around them.

 

Jarls would be completly desperate to get this problem solved in this way or another. Even better if it would be solved without them having to stretch their forces even thinner. So i dont see any reason why shouldnt they agree to make enslavement of such criminals legal if it would promise to make situation any better.

Becouse whats happening when some crime becomes a serious problem in the society? They make the laws more strict. It would be the same with legalization of slavery.

 

I dont see any reason why Jarl of Markarth for example would oppose the idea of enslavement of the forsworn.

 

 

 

 

I always found it amusing how in skyrim there are more bandits than decent people.

[Mygoodness777]

I fully intend to make slavery a natural part of Skyrim, however it will be more under the table than legal. Rather than only being bandits or Forsworn, I think it will be far more interesting to make it a sort of black market, where people can suddenly 'disappear' or even the most mighty of PCs can be dominated given enough misfortune or clever enemies. I'm brainstorming ideas right now, but my main focus is on creating the world space.

[nutluck]

Sounds interesting, I am hoping for something more along the lines of slavery in Roman Empire as a example and less BDSM. In otherwords less focused on sex and more focused on the slavery with the slaves used for sex as a byproduct if that makes sense.

[aqqh]

I fully intend to make slavery a natural part of Skyrim, however it will be more under the table than legal. Rather than only being bandits or Forsworn, I think it will be far more interesting to make it a sort of black market, where people can suddenly 'disappear' or even the most mighty of PCs can be dominated given enough misfortune or clever enemies. I'm brainstorming ideas right now, but my main focus is on creating the world space.

 

Thats what i would love to see - legal side of enslaving criminals and dark side of hunting the common folk.

Maybe even special missions to capture nobles - tho with this one it could be tricky. Capturing an essential npc is a fine way of getting your game messed up.

Unless ofc this mod would add new NPCs that arent needed for any vanilla quests.

 

Some interesting quests could be added to dark path to cover your deeds like forging false evidence that innocent girl/guy you've enslaved was a criminal / spy / forsworn supporter / deadra worshipper or feigning their deaths being eaten by wild animals etc

 

Btw for capturing mechanics you could simply make your mod dependant on Defeat and / or Submit. Just to add new option what to do with someone that you've captured. You could try to ask authors of those mods if they would be willing to offer some assistance. If not you could make conditions like if a target is tied up by Defeat mod / agreed to submit by Submit mod then your own enslavement mechanics kicks in.

Defeat does need something like that becouse for now it offers you no other option than to kill your prisoner.

[DocClox]

Watching this with interest

[Aliris]

This definitely sounds awesome.  Don't get discouraged, and take it at your own pace.

[Mygoodness777]

So an update...

 

For now I'm not messing with textures, or even terrain too much. I made the mountains look tolerable for terrain (I'll probably put bigger ones behind them later). No textures on those yet. Right now I'm going to start building the city itself and its buildings. I'll give you guys screenshots as things go up. Once that's done, I'll start making things look nicer perhaps...at least nice enough that I can look at it in game without wanting to tear my eyes out.

[ababababab]

I'm with Ferrox: you're going to burn out fast working on terrain details first, and you'll end up with a buggy mod. It's important to have a good general idea of what you're trying to do, including story line and a general idea of how the scripts will go.

 

Other thoughts:

-PLEASE don't break other mods, but especially slavery mods.

-Dialogue compatibility is hard and needs extra checking.

-Paradise Halls rocks and you may want to integrate its base.

-No currently available slavery mod has a way to reward slaves as part of training, and that would be nice to have.

-No currently available slavery mod integrates poses, and that would be nice to have.

-No currently available slavery mod properly integrates sex. It's buggy, or borrowed from another mod and the dialogues incompatible or non-immersive.

 

-This is a huge project. The only way for you to not burn out and quit is to get as much help as possible and make a little community of it.

 

While I have many ideas I'm sure there are more chiefs than indians already. I'll be happy to serve as a helper for the less fun parts like troubleshooting and prototyping.

[VAAlucard]

Don't worry about making a bunch of silly mistakes. The best way to get the outcomes you want are to just try and try again. keep up the good work.

[Luminar]

As for slavery in Skyrim, it was the Empire that outlawed it in all of Tamriel but Black Marsh proved unruly and Morrowind simply didn't care. As for Skyrim, many jarls contested the rule but the high king (I think it was Torygg's grandfather - don't quote me on that) wanted to keep the peace and abolished it.

 

That's incorrect. Slavery in the Empire has been outlawed since at least the days of Tiber Septim, and was likely prohibited by the Alessian and Reman Empires. Morrowind under the Septim Empire was exempt from Imperial prohibitions on slavery under the terms of the Armistice between Tiber Septim and Vivec, in which the Empire agreed to tolerate Morrowind's traditional culture and power structures (including the institution of slavery), while the Empire recieved the Brass God Numidium, which was used to seige Alinor and complete the conquest of Tamriel. (It should also be noted that King Helseth abolished slavery at the end of the Third Era)

[Mygoodness777]

Alright, I'm going to give an update today.

 

I haven't actually done much practical work on the mod since I last posted. A lot of it has been thinking and brainstorming as to how exactly this is going to be structured. I'd rather have a general idea of what I intend to do BEFORE I go blundering in and messing around with scripting and such.

 

I already have an idea of the general layout of my compound, and the sorts of buildings that are going to go in. The existence of this compound is less to be a mod itself, and more to house the slavery framework. Basically, the slavery framework is going to be fully implemented in this little 'city', and then I can think about applying it to the rest of Skyrim in some fashion. It'll give me the opportunity to test different ideas in terms of mechanics and quests and stuff. I know that sounds vague, but I want you to know that I have to build this framework from the ground up. Nobody has actually created a 'slavery' mod for Skyrim in the sense where you can actually be considered a slave, or NPCs can. This means a lot of upper level work so that the lower level stuff actually works.

 

This brings me to slavery itself. You might not think it, but it's really quite a gargantuan project. There are a lot of conditions that would be attached to slavery. Are you going to be able to cast spells? Is a slave going to be able to escape? How is that going to be managed? How does one distinguish between the different types of slavery? How is all of this accomplished without overloading Papyrus? How do the current assets fit into this?

 

Of course, I'd like all of this to be at least somewhat lore friendly...so there need to be appropriate quests and interactions.

 

I'm grateful that I'm receiving assistance from some of you already. Without your assistance, it will be impossible to make the mod of our dreams. I don't want to release anything until I actually have something of substance. That's still a ways down the road, but by providing you with updates, I'm hoping that you'll see progress being made.

[aqqh]

You're planning to add player slavery aswell? Or just the framework for it?

 

 

 

Are you going to be able to cast spells?

i think that it should have been possible - unless slave is gagged. Slave needs to know those spells first ofc - it would be quite silly if for example  captured bandit archer suddenly starts to throw fireballs at you. But captured rogue mage sure should have that option unless gaged.

 

 

 

 Is a slave going to be able to escape?

Very much yes.

 

 

 

How is that going to be managed?

Slave should have all sort of actions possible - unless those actions would be blocked. Blocked how? By implementation of devious devices for example.

Slave should have the option of attacking its master:

with magic - unless gagged

with weapon - unless armbinded/cuffed (ofc slave need to have/find that weapon first)

 

Should be able to run with handicap that comes from slave boots if equipped - unless leash is applied. By leash i mean some mechanic that forces slave to follow the master. For NPC its easy i guess. For player you could take a look at devious regulations punishments quests. There is something like that - final imperial punishment in Solitude forces player to follow Tullius (guess its the same with stormcloaks).

But tbh i would drop player slavery, at least for now. It would be just too much at once.

 

Equipped blindfold could reduce willingness to run/resist by quite alot.

 

Bad side of all this is that it would be fairly easy to block all those options (applied slave boots, armbinder, blindfold, gag and leash and chance would be basicly down to 0 no matter what).

 

Some mechanic to break the slave will would be great. Something like in paradise halls mod - at first slaves are desperatly trying to run/resist, but after few unsuccessful tries (or training) they realize its futile and accept their fate.

 

Ofc its easy to say but harder to script. I would try to do this like if a slave sees you that you are busy fighting some mobs then chance that he/she would try to run should be increased.

If they see you wounded after the fight chance that they will attack you should be increased.

If possible - if they see their friends nearby (mobs from same faction) chance that they will try to call for help should be increased.

[Luminar]

 

Of course, I'd like all of this to be at least somewhat lore friendly...so there need to be appropriate quests and interactions.

Generally speaking, so long as you treat slavery as an illegal activity, you're mostly good to go on lore. 

 

A few things to note though:

 

1. Slavery would be most offensive to the morality of Imperials. They are descended from slaves, their cultural heroes include people like Alessia, who freed her people from slavery, and their histories paint the Ayleids (the ones who enslaved the men of modern-day Cyrodiil) as monsters of the highest order.

 

3. Imperialization during the Third Era means that cultures more accepting of Slavery in past eras, such as the Dunmer, the Nords (who sold bretons into slavery after the Battle of Sancre Tor), and others, have moved away from tolerance of the practice, and are more used to the idea that it is prohibited.   By the end of the Third Era, for instance, the Dunmer had an abolitionist movement in their native lands, and slavery itself was eventually abolished by King Helseth (and note that it's been 200 years since that happened, which only bodes well for decreasing support of the institution, especially when many dunmer likely see Argonian slavery as being one of the prime factors behind the Argonian invasion of the early 4th Era, [the other being their weakness after the fall of Lie Rock and Red Mountain's eruption]). You wouldn't expect your average Nord to endorse the practice, but there are probably still a few Dunmer who would endorse it. Slavery is going to be an institution that most people in Tamriel diassprove of, and those who do support it have plenty of reasons to be weary of its traditional implementation. 

 

3. Skyrim in-game is tiny, but Skyrim in lore is a vast place, with plenty of room for clandestine activity on the periphery. 

 

4. The Empire under the medes is weak and fractured. This is a time of lawlessness, war, instability, and intrigue. Bandits maintain sizeable camps in the wilderness, with the largest ones possessing fortifications that rival an Orc Stronhold. The Imperial legion cannot enforce order in the wilderness, and the Stormcloaks don't care about those who aren't nords. There is plenty of opportunity for violations of the law and social norms on scales that would have never been possible under the firm rule of the most prosperous Septim Emperors.

 

tl;dr

1. Slavery is seedy, criminal activity.

2. Dunmer and elves more generally are probably the most likely to support the practice, although these are not the days of old Resdayn, slavery is less acceptable than it was in every corner of Tamriel, and the practice shouldn't be portrayed as enjoying anything resembling broad support.

3. Times are tough, crime happens anyway at massive scales.

[Mygoodness777]

This is actually intended to be a player slavery mod first, and NPC slavery added secondary. That isn't to say one will be 'lesser' than the other per say, but I think PC slavery should be priority. The point of the mod is to create a slavery framework that works. I wish it was as simple as creating one for both PC and NPC but I don't think that will work due to the different rules for both, and the accessibility of quests. I wanted to focus on PC slavery first, because it is so immensely popular. It's what the people seem to want most.

 

There are a whole host of other questions I will have to answer, but it was a general idea of the sort of thing I'm up against. I don't mind throwing around ideas right now.

 

For PC slavery, I think that all but the highest level spells should be disallowed when you have certain kinds of gear on you. This is because it would make a very easy escape. I found that the ability to use spells to get out of DD gear was a little broken, because even my weak starting girl could use spells and break out of her gear after she got the armbinder off. Maybe that was because of the difficulty. Finding spells is not hard either. Being a powerful mage will make it much harder to control you, but a strong enough gag would stop you. I think that's reasonable.

 

In terms of NPC...well I'd rather not have to watch my back with a mage captive. I think something simpler should be fine for them. A gag should stop it once and for all. When you're fighting that dragon, do you want your slave to blast you with a fireball? Probably not.

 

Escaping will be something more difficult to script, but I think it should be based on a few different factors, including player skills and type of bindings. For PC...well I'll get there a bit further in this post.

 

PC slavery is supposed to be limiting based on a number of factors. If you're a scum of the earth sort of slave who is used and abused, I think escape should be very difficult due to the fact that you tend to be bound more severely and your skills may be impaired. You would have less freedom anyway. If you're more free to roam about, then perhaps there should be other limitations. Bear in mind that the more complexity that is added, the more difficult it will be to implement, and it will be a lot heavier on Papyrus. I'm concerned that I'm going to get in over my head with scripting, as much as I have good ideas.

 

Perhaps certain kinds of slave gear should limit your physical or magical abilities. This would prevent you just getting a weapon and beating the crap out of your crappy bandit master who would be a joke to fight in a fair fight anyway. Maybe enemies can have poisoned weapons...maybe with paralysis. There are a few different options to explore, and I will see which ones are feasible once I get to scripting.

 

In my compound, I'm actually intending to put a small bandit section, where the more civil bandits operate. They may have connections with the darker side of banditry as well. It's not going to be something you see in the major cities, but it will be present. The only place that will have open and accepted slavery will be the compound. Everywhere else will have it underground. They're an afterthought though.

[aqqh]

Well on highest difficulty settings even crappy bandits could be tough especially when they would strip you of your gear.

So escape mechanics imo shuld be vbased on two scenarios:

1 you run away when opportunity arises - then for example timer, if you manage to stay unnoticed from your captors for like 2(?) minutes then you are considered free.

2 when your captors get attacked by someone / something you use the opportunity to run / attack them.

 

That would require that captured PC would be placed in non hostile faction. So wild animals for example would attack your captors not you.

 

For spells you could take a look at S3 mod. I guess there was something like that or at least it was intended. There was couple types of bindings, some intended to be destroyed even by simpliest destruction magic (rope bindings), some by far tougher (steel cuffs).

 

For the escape mechanics being too easy i would leave that for game difficulty setting. On highest settings when you are weaponless, without armor and without your follower then even couple of crappy bandit thugs could prove to be quite a challenge. And if there would be some high lv bandit (chief/marauder) it would be obvious that running away would be by far easier than defeating them with a pickaxe or whatever wanna-be-weapon you will have at your disposal.

 

Oh and PC slavery thing may be popular but there is a few mods with this topic currently WIP.

PC as slaver - only those that were never finished and most likely they will never be.

[Luminar]

Perhaps certain kinds of slave gear should limit your physical or magical abilities. This would prevent you just getting a weapon and beating the crap out of your crappy bandit master who would be a joke to fight in a fair fight anyway. Maybe enemies can have poisoned weapons...maybe with paralysis. There are a few different options to explore, and I will see which ones are feasible once I get to scripting.

 

While I don't think any mods currently offer a mesh for this kind of thing, bondage mittens would be a relatively easy way of preventing the player from equipping weapons. They could be equipped in the same slot used for gauntlets, there's absolutely no need for new animations, and all you would need to do is script them so that the player can't equip a weapon. You could also use a vanilla mesh as a placeholder, perhaps handwaving it as there being splints in the fingers of the gauntlet/glove that prevent grasping.

[Mygoodness777]

I've started coming up with the framework for my scripting. Essentially, I'm fitting together the framework itself...how the properties and scripts are going to interact with each other. The reason I've shifted my attention from the world to the scripts, is that if I can finish those, Skyrim will have a functional slavery system that I can build the rest of the mod around. It's going to start out rather basic, but I'm thinking it will be easier to start here and then build quests and the actual compound around that framework.

 

Yeah, generic. Be excited though. Slavery is coming to Skyrim, albeit slowly!

[aqqh]

Love to hear that you're still on it

[Mygoodness777]

Okay everyone. I'm making an executive decision here. Because there has been a massive burst of activity around slavery (don't know if I had an influence on that or not), I've decided to narrow my ambitions. There's no sense creating a massive mod that's not going to be compatible with everyone else's mods (however many survive.) Instead I'm going to focus on creating the scripting and framework for slavery. This includes PC and NPC slavery. I've found that creating a world is rather...arduous. I'm not really that good at it. I have a feeling that once I get into scripting, I'll find it to be much more intuitive. I've adjusted the name and status of the mod and I'll be able to make much more progress now. I'll post again with details soon, and I really hope I can collaborate and work with some of you concerning your mods. Together we will bring slavery to Skyrim!

 

OP IS EDITED!

[Guest]

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