Why did Bethesda use papyrus?

Corncob · January 28, 2014

Who in their right mind decided to make papyrus? Just load up a bunch of semi script intense mods and watch as scripts take several seconds to act! Why didn't they go with the older system that worked perfectly fine?

gvman3670 · January 28, 2014

There are some tweaks available to help speed it up.

Corncob · January 28, 2014

Yeah, I know but i'm wondering why Bethesda dumped a scripting system that worked for one that doesn't have any ground breaking features, that I have seen anyway.

gvman3670 · January 28, 2014

Maybe becasue their older system couldn't handle what Skyrim was going to give it?

*TDA* · January 28, 2014

Yeah, I know but i'm wondering why Bethesda dumped a scripting system that worked for one that doesn't have any ground breaking features, that I have seen anyway.

Papyrus as a whole is more convenient (OBSE) and it is object-oriented language, but very slow (One quest script demands a minimum of 0.5 seconds- by the way, I think it is connected with a problem of synchronisation of streams.), and somehow strange uses (or does not use) multi cores

Corncob · January 28, 2014

Yeah, I know but i'm wondering why Bethesda dumped a scripting system that worked for one that doesn't have any ground breaking features, that I have seen anyway.

Papyrus as a whole is more convenient (OBSE) and it is object-oriented language, but very slow (One command demands a minimum of 0.5 seconds- by the way, I think it is connected with a problem of synchronisation of streams.), and somehow strange uses (or does not use) multi cores

I suppose Bethesda decided that they don't need to worry about script delay? Also what is up with triple A developers not utilising systems to there fullest, especially in regards to ram.

Absurdity · January 28, 2014

Yeah, I know but i'm wondering why Bethesda dumped a scripting system that worked for one that doesn't have any ground breaking features, that I have seen anyway.

Papyrus as a whole is more convenient (OBSE) and it is object-oriented language, but very slow (One command demands a minimum of 0.5 seconds- by the way, I think it is connected with a problem of synchronisation of streams.), and somehow strange uses (or does not use) multi cores

I suppose Bethesda decided that they don't need to worry about script delay? Also what is up with triple A developers not utilising systems to there fullest, especially in regards to ram.

Just one word: consoles.

This might make me look like a "PC Master Race" idiot but most games are developed for consoles and then lazily ported to PC without any attempt to improve it or atleast make it less annoying for PC interfaces/controls.

Is it the fault of the console? Hell no, the console's hardware will always pale in comparison to even a mediocre gaming PC and games have to be tailored accordingly since alienating console gamers would be a bad decision from a business perspective. It however does still limit the game's potential and game companies are often too lazy to fix it.

January 28, 2014

It is not a matter of being Lazy, It is a matter of profit margin. Game consoles are very hard to pirate in terms of games.

Absurdity · January 28, 2014

It is not a matter of being Lazy, It is a matter of profit margin. Game consoles are very hard to pirate in terms of games.

It's not about developing games for consoles but being lazy fucks when porting those games over to PC.

*D_ManXX2* · January 28, 2014

It is not a matter of being Lazy, It is a matter of profit margin. Game consoles are very hard to pirate in terms of games.

Not true consoles are now pirated 2 to 1 compared to pc, since there more console games then pc now.

January 28, 2014

I stand corrected, please do not beat me anymore....it hurts.

gvman3670 · January 28, 2014

I stand corrected, please do not beat me anymore....it hurts.

The sad part is some would consider you borrowing a friend's disc pirating. That's all that Steam (or any other similar "service") has actually stopped anyway since you can still get "non-Steam" versions of any game you want. You can still do that on consoles, though. Yet I'd bet Bethesda made a heck of a lot more money from console sales of their last six titles than they made on their PC sales. Any takers?

Shaydow · January 29, 2014

The sad part is some would consider you borrowing a friend's disc pirating. That's all that Steam (or any other similar "service") has actually stopped anyway since you can still get "non-Steam" versions of any game you want. You can still do that on consoles, though. Yet I'd bet Bethesda made a heck of a lot more money from console sales of their last six titles than they made on their PC sales. Any takers?

The only reason I think this may not be the case is because fans know Bethesda games are HIGHLY moddable on PC. Any of us from the Morrowind or before era know what we can do with the games on PC. I will never buy another Bethesda game for console again, simply because I EXPECT the games to be moddable on PC, and wouldn't want to play one WITHOUT the ability to mod it ( example : Can you imagine the outrage if TES VI was inherently NOT moddable? Sure us PC users will of course still find a way, but it's the fact that we EXPECT it now that would be the upset ).

Just a thought.

*EDIT* and to add, a friend bought me Fallout 3 for PS3 for my birthday. I played it, then when I could afford it bought it on Steam so I could mod it.

**EDIT 2** Turns out the majority of Fans are not "fans" and have no idea what a Bethesda game is capable of on the PC. Sucks to be them.

gvman3670 · January 29, 2014

The sad part is some would consider you borrowing a friend's disc pirating. That's all that Steam (or any other similar "service") has actually stopped anyway since you can still get "non-Steam" versions of any game you want. You can still do that on consoles, though. Yet I'd bet Bethesda made a heck of a lot more money from console sales of their last six titles than they made on their PC sales. Any takers?

The only reason I think this may not be the case is because fans know Bethesda games are HIGHLY moddable on PC. Any of us from the Morrowind or before era know what we can do with the games on PC. I will never buy another Bethesda game for console again, simply because I EXPECT the games to be moddable on PC, and wouldn't want to play one WITHOUT the ability to mod it ( example : Can you imagine the outrage if TES VI was inherently NOT moddable? Sure us PC users will of course still find a way, but it's the fact that we EXPECT it now that would be the upset ).

Just a thought.

*EDIT* and to add, a friend bought me Fallout 3 for PS3 for my birthday. I played it, then when I could afford it bought it on Steam so I could mod it.

**EDIT 2** Turns out the majority of Fans are not "fans" and have no idea what a Bethesda game is capable of on the PC. Sucks to be them.

I have Arena, I have Morrowind on PC (and bought two complete copies for XBox as well), have Oblivion on PC (and also bought two X360 copies as well as all the DLC), have Fallout on X360, have FNV on PC (and on X360), have Rage on 360 and have bought Skyrim for PC twice (and have it on X360).

But I'm not a Bethesda fan at all. :lol: And in most cases I haven't worried a lot about modding since most of their games are large enough to keep me busy a while.

TheOzoneHole · January 30, 2014

The sad part is some would consider you borrowing a friend's disc pirating. That's all that Steam (or any other similar "service") has actually stopped anyway since you can still get "non-Steam" versions of any game you want. You can still do that on consoles, though. Yet I'd bet Bethesda made a heck of a lot more money from console sales of their last six titles than they made on their PC sales. Any takers?

The only reason I think this may not be the case is because fans know Bethesda games are HIGHLY moddable on PC. Any of us from the Morrowind or before era know what we can do with the games on PC. I will never buy another Bethesda game for console again, simply because I EXPECT the games to be moddable on PC, and wouldn't want to play one WITHOUT the ability to mod it ( example : Can you imagine the outrage if TES VI was inherently NOT moddable? Sure us PC users will of course still find a way, but it's the fact that we EXPECT it now that would be the upset ).

Just a thought.

*EDIT* and to add, a friend bought me Fallout 3 for PS3 for my birthday. I played it, then when I could afford it bought it on Steam so I could mod it.

**EDIT 2** Turns out the majority of Fans are not "fans" and have no idea what a Bethesda game is capable of on the PC. Sucks to be them.

I have Arena, I have Morrowind on PC (and bought two complete copies for XBox as well), have Oblivion on PC (and also bought two X360 copies as well as all the DLC), have Fallout on X360, have FNV on PC (and on X360), have Rage on 360 and have bought Skyrim for PC twice (and have it on X360).

But I'm not a Bethesda fan at all. And in most cases I haven't worried a lot about modding since most of their games are large enough to keep me busy a while.

True, the games are large. Well, "large" as compared to, say, singleplayer Gears of War or other FPS titles, which get their longevity from multiplayer.

The simple fact is that, according to BethSoft, the sales for Oblivion and Fallout 3 on consoles (Xbox 360 in particular) were greater than the sales on PC. As such, they focused on console versions when making Skyrim. I started playing Oblivion on 360, and got FO3 for it as well. I played Oblivion so much that the compass box, heath magicka and stamina bars burned themselves onto my TV and were there for years. I'd never really touched an RPG before, and I've gone and become something of a western RPG fanatic. All the elder scrolls and main fallout games are where I usually spend my time. I have all of them for PC and got rid of my console copies.

Video in the spoiler talks about a bunch of different things wrong with Skyrim when it came out. Modders have fixed most of them, but we can't fix beth's broken marketing decisions.

As for the use of Papyrus, it is a good programming language, if you are teaching people to program. And using it allows people who've never programmed able to pick it up and use it without super lots of trouble. I think about the time I spent trying to do things with the Oblivion scripting system, and the constant wishes that they had used an actual programming language... Yes, Java or C++ would have been better and more powerful, but they picked something that more people would be able to use. Balance of power & usability + a focus on console development = papyrus.

winny257 · January 30, 2014

I keep hearing this word "papyrus papyrus papyrus" for what I need that to which it is good, it is a milestone in the development?

I have not used it until now and I will continue to not need, I do not even know where it is!

So it seems to be completely useless.

german

ich höre ständig dieses wort "papyrus papyrus papyrus" wofür brauch ich das ,wozu ist es gut , ist es ein meilenstein in der entwicklung ?

ich habe es bis jetzt nicht gebraucht und ich werde es weiterhin nicht brauchen , ich weiß nicht mal wo es ist !

also scheint es völlig nutzlos zu sein .

gvman3670 · January 30, 2014

I keep hearing this word "papyrus papyrus papyrus" for what I need that to which it is good, it is a milestone in the development?

I have not used it until now and I will continue to not need, I do not even know where it is!

So it seems to be completely useless.

german

ich höre ständig dieses wort "papyrus papyrus papyrus" wofür brauch ich das ,wozu ist es gut , ist es ein meilenstein in der entwicklung ?

ich habe es bis jetzt nicht gebraucht und ich werde es weiterhin nicht brauchen , ich weiß nicht mal wo es ist !

also scheint es völlig nutzlos zu sein .

You are using it every single time you start your game up. :lol: You many not be accessing it and changing it in any way, but you are using it (since the game engine uses it).

aske89 · January 30, 2014

Because they're Burzum fans

Caturday · January 30, 2014

There are some tweaks available to help speed it up.

Do Tell!

undeadcarrot · February 1, 2014

The old system was not fine. No arrays, no type checking, fragile syntax parsing, limited options for flow control, and no way to attach new event handlers to entities at runtime. Basically it was someone's quick hack for Morrowind that lived on far longer than it should have.