Jump to content

RaceMenu or ECE ?


dje34

  

2,300 members have voted

  1. 1. Which Character Creation Mod do you prefer ?

    • RaceMenu
      1312
    • ECE
      899
    • Other (please, tell us)
      89


Recommended Posts

Well as I've seen it's been mentioned, ECE is now obsolete due to racemenu's new vertex editor

Racemenu has all of ECE's good features with added compatibility with other popular mods such as Familiar Faces

 

The only "reason" to keep using ECE is if you have an old character who's face you don't want to remake, which really isn't much of a reason

Link to comment

Another reason why I prefer Enhanced Character Edit is because of rxkx22's great works such as:  Toccata, Seranaholic (Serana) and Bijin Warmaidens.  They were all created with ECE.  And people often like to stigmatize that ECE is only good for creating anime-like characters.  Ignorance is bliss, huh? *smh*

 

To me, RaceMenu has yet to prove itself in that regard.  And to all of the people that say that ECE is obsolete:  some people just don't need all of the extra bells and whistles that RM provides to make great looking characters.  Some people just prefer to keep it simple.  What's wrong with that?

 

I've been testing RM3 to try to make the switch and RM definitely can reproduce ECE (e.g. see here), IF you can figure out the dual morph slider combo that matches the ECE morph (not a trivial task).

 

Anyway, from a technical perspective, I'm ready to say RM3 is superior to ECE. HOWEVER, from a usability perspective, ECE is still better. RM lacks some very basic features that significantly impair usability during in-depth editing sessions.

 

Major usability issues:

  • ECE has a history feature for sliders. This is invaluable when you're spending a lot of time making tweaks and need to make comparisons or undo a series of changes. RM really needs this. This is critical functionality for perfecting a character.
  • RM sliders are poorly organized. Enuf said.
  • RM has limited camera options (2 levels of zoom only?) and one lighting setting that is very harsh. In comparison, ECE has a controllable zoom level through the mouse wheel (you can get really close if you need to) and it has multiple realistic light settings. This is essential to making sure your character looks correct under various lighting environments. RM's harsh lighting option tends to wash things out and won't provide a good representation of how your character looks during play.
  • RM color sliders suck. There are no values displayed on the HSB sliders, which amazed me. It's like working in the dark. This is even more important when there's no history feature. Want to go back to that color you had before? Good luck with that when you can't see the values.

Subjective issue:

  • While ECE/Vanilla controls are kind of "sticky," RM3 seems to be quite sensitive. I've made numerous unintended slider adjustments by accident, which is aggravated by the lack of a history/undo feature. The mouse would often be involved in this. I generally experienced two types:
    • Type 1: I'm using the keyboard to adjust settings while moving the head around with the mouse. Occasionally, the focus will move to a different slider and cause an unintended change. Not sure if it's user error, a bug, or just RM being more sensitive. This rarely happened to me in ECE.
    • Type 2: I'm using the mouse to drag through a slider with a lot of options (e.g. hair slider). While dragging, I accidentally move into a different slider row and the value changes to where my mouse is pointing to. Oops. ECE/Vanilla is stickier and tends to be resistant to this.
Link to comment

 

Major usability issues:

  • ECE has a history feature for sliders. This is invaluable when you're spending a lot of time making tweaks and need to make comparisons or undo a series of changes. RM really needs this. This is critical functionality for perfecting a character.

There's many reasons there's no history. A proper history turns every action into an object, not just linear code. A huge portion of the UI would need to be redone just to turn code into actions. I have no idea if ECE has done this, more likely it hasn't. Many actions like changing gender, warpaints, or body paints would not work at all if ran in sequence too quickly, there would need to be a significant delay between each action to ensure correct order of execution.

 

Sculpt has a history because it's done completely internally at C++ level, there's pretty much no other way I could do it as the actions are far too complicated to be managed by Scaleform.

 

 

 

Major usability issues:

  • RM sliders are poorly organized. Enuf said.

Enough said? That doesn't really help me fix the problem. As of 3.0 plugin sliders can now have their own category, the only things left that are not organized well enough are the additional sliders, which go in to rough related areas, if you want more specific categorization of those you'll have to speak up, because those need to be changed internal level.

 

 

Major usability issues:

  • RM has limited camera options (2 levels of zoom only?) and one lighting setting that is very harsh. In comparison, ECE has a controllable zoom level through the mouse wheel (you can get really close if you need to) and it has multiple realistic light settings. This is essential to making sure your character looks correct under various lighting environments. RM's harsh lighting option tends to wash things out and won't provide a good representation of how your character looks during play.

Uhh what? Have you even gone to the Camera tab? ECE actually doesn't do fuck all to the camera, it dynamically changes your field of view, this isn't zooming, this is an illusion of zooming.

 

 

Major usability issues:

  • RM color sliders suck. There are no values displayed on the HSB sliders, which amazed me. It's like working in the dark. This is even more important when there's no history feature. Want to go back to that color you had before? Good luck with that when you can't see the values.

The values are shown in hex down below, adding a 0-100% value wouldn't be difficult but I sincerely doubt it makes any bit of difference, being off by 2% you can barely tell the difference. As for previous color, same thing about the history stuff I mentioned above, many things are not coded as action objects, they are just do this or do that, many of them are threaded actions so if one thread runs before another I cant guarantee order of execution. This isn't impossible to do, just not a priority, especially not since I've just released a major version.

 

 

Subjective issue:

  • While ECE/Vanilla controls are kind of "sticky," RM3 seems to be quite sensitive. I've made numerous unintended slider adjustments by accident, which is aggravated by the lack of a history/undo feature. The mouse would often be involved in this. I generally experienced two types:
    • Type 1: I'm using the keyboard to adjust settings while moving the head around with the mouse. Occasionally, the focus will move to a different slider and cause an unintended change. Not sure if it's user error, a bug, or just RM being more sensitive. This rarely happened to me in ECE.
    • Type 2: I'm using the mouse to drag through a slider with a lot of options (e.g. hair slider). While dragging, I accidentally move into a different slider row and the value changes to where my mouse is pointing to. Oops. ECE/Vanilla is stickier and tends to be resistant to this.

 

Focus changes because you changed it (by moving the mouse), it's not random. As for slider behavior, it's literally the same slider code, I don't know where you get the stickier idea from unless you are releasing during the drag?

 

 

I did experience most of the issues mentioned previously when I tried an earlier version of RaceMenu.  This is another reason why I don't want to switch at the moment.  The UI has way too many hiccups for me.  Hopefully, that'll change eventually.

Nothing will change if you don't thoroughly explain the issue you have with it. 

Link to comment

Slider Organization

 


  • RM sliders are poorly organized. Enuf said.

Enough said? That doesn't really help me fix the problem. As of 3.0 plugin sliders can now have their own category, the only things left that are not organized well enough are the additional sliders, which go in to rough related areas, if you want more specific categorization of those you'll have to speak up, because those need to be changed internal level.

 

I think it'd be helpful to have additional categorization and also ordering.

 

Categorization:

  • Create Nose category. All Nose sliders are currently in the Face category, but the Nose is a major facial feature with a lot of sliders, so it should get its own category like Mouth and Eyes.
  • Move Chin sliders from "Mouth" to "Face" category. The Chin is defining the Face, like the Jaw and Cheek sliders (found in Face Category)

Ordering:

  • Additional sliders should be ordered by grouping (note: I'm not sure which are are the additional sliders, but I will assume by your comment that the disorganized ones I'm about to mention are the additional ones).
    • Example: In the Mouth category, the bottom sliders jumble together the Mouth and Lip sliders, which is quite confusing. Current ordering: Mouth Width 2, Lip Thickness, Mouth Height 2, Lower Lip Height, [Lip sliders], Mouth Width, Lip Pout, [Chin sliders], Mouth Type 2.
  • Group the old and new sliders together. By this I mean order Mouth Type, Mouth Type 2, Mouth Width, Mouth Width 2. Maybe this is a bad idea if you're not expected to use both together. Alternative is to do [Mouth Sliders 1], [Mouth Sliders 2], [Lip Sliders 1], [Lip Sliders 2]. Idea is to group all the related feature area sliders together so you don't have to go up and down the page searching for the relevant sliders.

 

 

Camera and Lighting Options

 


  • RM has limited camera options (2 levels of zoom only?) and one lighting setting that is very harsh [...]

Uhh what? Have you even gone to the Camera tab? ECE actually doesn't do fuck all to the camera, it dynamically changes your field of view, this isn't zooming, this is an illusion of zooming.

 

Okay, I take back that camera comment. I just tried the Camera tab. It is awesome.

 

As for lighting, I stand by that comment. The one lighting setting is rather harsh and doesn't perform well indoors either. If multiple lighting settings can be added (similar to ECE), I think that'd help a lot.

 

Below is an image with 3 screenshots using RM3:

post-204633-0-47080100-1420341128_thumb.jpg

 

#1 is with no lights outdoors at 8:30am. This is the reference image.

#2 is WITH lights (same place & time). In this case, the single lighting setting is too harsh for the environment and overexposes the face.

#3 is WITH lights, but INDOORS in a poorly lit location. In this case, the single lighting setting ends up making the character's skin look like a darker tone (almost Red Guard-ish). This really threw me off when I was first setting the skin tone color (I had the ARGB value from my ECE character but it was looking totally different--going outside made me realize it was the lighting).

 

ECE mitigates this issue of environments by having 4 or 5 different lighting settings of varying intensity and color.

 

 

Color Sliders

 


  • RM color sliders suck. There are no values displayed on the HSB sliders [...]

The values are shown in hex down below, adding a 0-100% value wouldn't be difficult but I sincerely doubt it makes any bit of difference, being off by 2% you can barely tell the difference. As for previous color, same thing about the history stuff I mentioned above, many things are not coded as action objects, they are just do this or do that, many of them are threaded actions so if one thread runs before another I cant guarantee order of execution. This isn't impossible to do, just not a priority, especially not since I've just released a major version.

 

The user only directly controls the Hue, Saturation, Brightness though. ARGB is controlled indirectly through the conversion, and trying to match an RGB value with the HSB felt a bit like a puzzle since each HSB slider can impact multiple RGB channels. I tried to match specific ARGB values (from my ECE character), and it turned into an incredibly frustrating exercise.

 

As a side note, do RM and ECE handle the HSB->RGB conversion differently? Or is the scaling somehow different? I had HSB values from ECE as well, and I tried to match the values in RM by eye, but the resulting RGB values were often very off. I couldn't figure out the nature of the problem (was the scaling different / was my eyeballing really off?) since there were no HSB values displayed.

 

Either way, having HSB values would be useful. Agreed that it's lower priority though.

 

 

Unintended Adjustments

 


  • While ECE/Vanilla controls are kind of "sticky," RM3 seems to be quite sensitive. I've made numerous unintended slider adjustments by accident [...]

Focus changes because you changed it (by moving the mouse), it's not random. As for slider behavior, it's literally the same slider code, I don't know where you get the stickier idea from unless you are releasing during the drag?

 

 

Maybe it's a bug? I just had this happen again while I was cycling back and forth through the "Head Shape" slider, trying to figure out which looked most like my ECE character. At one point, the focus jumped to the slider below (Ear Height). When this happened, I checked my mouse. It was nowhere near the window.

 

It didn't happen again during that session despite efforts to reproduce it. When I see it happen again, I'll make note of what I was doing at the time to try and figure out the conditions for this.

Link to comment

I haven't really had a chance to fully integrate myself with all the new features of RM... I do love the camera, awesome!!! as for the lighting issues, I've had no issues with it. I don't see why someone would want to edit there character in less than perfect lighting conditions anyway... except to change a face morph. I didn't experience any of the slider jumps with 3.0 though I did have it happen a couple times with the previous version while I was editing the cheeks, the right side, rear if I remember correctly. when I installed 3.0 my faces were a bit off from what they were, mostly in the lip and jaw, it took me 2 minutes to adjust it... no big deal with that, oh yeah, all the sliders were at the 0 position... but after I made my changes to the jaw and lips, I saved it, quit... then restarted my game ... everything was fine and sliders were where I guess they should've been. For such a major overhaul of a delicate frame work, and this being the only problem I have.... Awesome job!!!  ECE will soon be but a memory.

Link to comment

Started a new game with ECE and LAL, saw this:

post-134589-0-94712600-1420360854_thumb.jpg

Hooray for clever mod design ^ ^ And this pops back to that view every time you change something.

Anti-ECE conspiracy by the authors of LAL and RM ...? ;)

Joking, of course. But this shows the old age of ECE, as it never was adjusted to the new LAL starting room.

 

 

Let's be honest, ECE was a fantastic mod (and still is if observed in a vacuum). Just look at all the fantastic stuff that people created with it over the years!

However - unless ECE catches up and copies all the RM-exclusive features, i don't see the competition anymore.

 

And i don't like the idea of "fanboyism", i only compare available products and decide which one suits me better.

Link to comment

 

Nothing will change if you don't thoroughly explain the issue you have with it. 

First of all, duplicate sliders for the same face part is one issue I'm having with RaceMenu.  Mouth Type and Mouth Type 2?  Sliders such as those need to be merged into one to help avoid confusion.  And nanashi50 already explained that sliders for one area need to be better grouped together.

 

Secondly, it would also be great if you could somehow implement a History function for all of RaceMenu, not just the Sculpt Mode.  I don't think that's asking for the impossible.  There should be some sort of workaround that can be figured out, given time.

 

And I only use the sliders in Enhanced Character Edit when I create my characters, so the History function (Sculpt Mode only) in RM would most likely be useless to me.  I don't want to have to reload a preset every time I make one small error, potentially having to start from scratch as I've already done several times before with RM.

 

Those are the two biggest issues that I currently have with RM at the moment.  I hope that was adequate feedback.  I can't explain it any better than that.

The duplicate sliders are remnants of ECE converted stuff. These sliders are exactly the exact same as Mouth Type, the difference is that these sliders have EVERY preset available, certain races have a subset of the total preset pool. Why these appear to function differently to ECE is because RM doesn't remove the original preset sliders, so when you apply a Type 2 option, it's in addition to the original type.

 

The reasons why there is no history for everything I've previously mentioned. This is asking quite a lot because I don't do hacks, I do it right, or not at all. Doing history properly would involve re-coding massive chunks of the menu. Of course this is not impossible, it's just going to be a huge amount of work, meaning time, time I will have much less of this year.

Link to comment

I've noticed that using a "number 2" slider adds the changes on top of any changes set with the other slider of that type. Two nose types together is fugly. :lol: I've been using mostly the second slider when there are two available for the same thing. It's been working.

 

Expired, I haven't read anything anywhere answering this....is sculpting supposed to not work when using a controller? The ECE sculptor worked fine with a controller and I haven't been able to make heads or tails of your new sculptor while using a controller.

Link to comment

Started a new game with ECE and LAL, saw this:

attachicon.gifenb 2015_01_03 16_33_26_80.jpg

Hooray for clever mod design ^ ^ And this pops back to that view every time you change something.

Anti-ECE conspiracy by the authors of LAL and RM ...? ;)

Joking, of course. But this shows the old age of ECE, as it never was adjusted to the new LAL starting room.

 

 

Let's be honest, ECE was a fantastic mod (and still is if observed in a vacuum). Just look at all the fantastic stuff that people created with it over the years!

However - unless ECE catches up and copies all the RM-exclusive features, i don't see the competition anymore.

 

And i don't like the idea of "fanboyism", i only compare available products and decide which one suits me better.

 

Great reply man.  ;)

Link to comment

I've noticed that using a "number 2" slider adds the changes on top of any changes set with the other slider of that type. Two nose types together is fugly. :lol: I've been using mostly the second slider when there are two available for the same thing. It's been working.

 

Expired, I haven't read anything anywhere answering this....is sculpting supposed to not work when using a controller? The ECE sculptor worked fine with a controller and I haven't been able to make heads or tails of your new sculptor while using a controller.

 

Yes, sculpting doesn't work with the controller on purpose. Reason for this is, you wouldn't know where your cursor is (and more).

 

His sticky comment @Nexus:

There will not be, nor will ever be controller support for the Sculpt feature, sorry.

 

In ECE it worked because the vertex editor (not really sculpting... :P) edits only one vertex at a time and you control it with sliders.

Link to comment

Yes, sculpting doesn't work with the controller on purpose. Reason for this is, you wouldn't know where your cursor is (and more).

 

 

 

His sticky comment @Nexus:

There will not be, nor will ever be controller support for the Sculpt feature, sorry.

 

In ECE it worked because the vertex editor (not really sculpting... :P) edits only one vertex at a time and you control it with sliders.

 

Not knowing where the cursor is isn't really a big deal, I could make a virtual cursor only appear in the window and you move it with the controller, but this would be slow as shit. The sculpt native functions take simple arguments like X,Y as long as you have some guide to where you are located you could make it work.

 

The main problem is context switching. There are so many elements that you would need to 'focus' to alter with the controller which makes navigation ridiculously slow. The head part window has 4 options, so, toggle with 4 different buttons or have left right column selection? There's also the brush window and history window, you'd have to switch selection via 2 keys (previous and next) so those are essentially reserved.

 

Anyway controller support isn't up for debate, I just mentioned why there is no controller support, on top of the fact I hardly use a controller anyway. The fact there is any controller support at all is because I put it there to please everyone else.

Link to comment

 

The duplicate sliders are remnants of ECE converted stuff. These sliders are exactly the exact same as Mouth Type, the difference is that these sliders have EVERY preset available, certain races have a subset of the total preset pool. Why these appear to function differently to ECE is because RM doesn't remove the original preset sliders, so when you apply a Type 2 option, it's in addition to the original type.

 

That's really good to know. Are we meant to NOT use both together? And does Type = 0 mean it's off? Because I was able to fix the nose deformation on my character by setting Nose Type 2 = 0 (off?) and just using Nose Type. However, I didn't seem to be able to do the reverse (turn off "Nose Type" and just use "Nose Type 2").

 

I was hoping that was also the cause of my character's eyeball issue, but I already have "Eye Shape" = 0 and only using "Eye Type" (ECE slider?).

 

 

index.php?app=core&module=attach&section

 

Link to comment

 

 

The duplicate sliders are remnants of ECE converted stuff. These sliders are exactly the exact same as Mouth Type, the difference is that these sliders have EVERY preset available, certain races have a subset of the total preset pool. Why these appear to function differently to ECE is because RM doesn't remove the original preset sliders, so when you apply a Type 2 option, it's in addition to the original type.

 

That's really good to know. Are we meant to NOT use both together? And does Type = 0 mean it's off? Because I was able to fix the nose deformation on my character by setting Nose Type 2 = 0 (off?) and just using Nose Type. However, I didn't seem to be able to do the reverse (turn off "Nose Type" and just use "Nose Type 2").

 

I was hoping that was also the cause of my character's eyeball issue, but I already have "Eye Shape" = 0 and only using "Eye Type" (ECE slider?).

Unfortunately Type = 0 doesn't mean off, only Type 2 = 0 is off. Some vanilla sliders actually have a type 0 for some unknown reason.

Link to comment

 

Unfortunately Type = 0 doesn't mean off, only Type 2 = 0 is off. Some vanilla sliders actually have a type 0 for some unknown reason.

 

 

So that means we're not supposed to use Type 2? Because when I use both, it seems to result in weird deformations.

 

Also, for the eyes, "Eye Shape" and "Eye Type" (equivalent of Type 1 and Type 2?) seem to behave differently (height is way off). "Eye Shape" also seems to make the left eyelids heavier than the right. Can you explain what's going on and how to address that?

 

Link to comment

 

 

Unfortunately Type = 0 doesn't mean off, only Type 2 = 0 is off. Some vanilla sliders actually have a type 0 for some unknown reason.

 

 

So that means we're not supposed to use Type 2? Because when I use both, it seems to result in weird deformations.

 

Also, for the eyes, "Eye Shape" and "Eye Type" (equivalent of Type 1 and Type 2?) seem to behave differently (height is way off). "Eye Shape" also seems to make the left eyelids heavier than the right. Can you explain what's going on and how to address that?

 

 

Doesn't mean you're not supposed to, just means you have to find a nose morph that does little to the face, then use type 2. I haven't done any of the morphs, they are copied either from vanilla, or from ECE, in terms of the files there's absolutely no difference. What's different is the fact that the morphs do not replace existing morphs. Type 2 morphs, without a standard position for the original Type are generally of no use unless you can find a type that is very close to standard position, or edit the vanilla morphs yourself.

 

Regarding the morphs themselves, I have no idea why that would be. As I said I copied the morphs from ECE, literally changing nothing about the files. Additive morphs are applied in the exact same manner.

 

I have no intention of overwriting vanilla files or behaviors.

Link to comment

In hindsight, a "both" option should be added to this poll. I know that RM and ECE are not fully compatible but ECE has select few features that can (very arguably) stand up to RM.

 

1. Extended sliders: RM doesn't provide fine adjustments as ECE optional "extended sliders". I know that RM has sculpt fully functional, right now. But when I create my characters I prefer to do them without a nose bleed. That is, saying that I use sculpt for finishing touches or adjustments I can't make with sliders.

 

That's the only thing I can think of. Unless I am missing something.

Link to comment

 

 

Also, for the eyes, "Eye Shape" and "Eye Type" (equivalent of Type 1 and Type 2?) seem to behave differently (height is way off). "Eye Shape" also seems to make the left eyelids heavier than the right. Can you explain what's going on and how to address that?
Regarding the morphs themselves, I have no idea why that would be. As I said I copied the morphs from ECE, literally changing nothing about the files. Additive morphs are applied in the exact same manner.

 

I have no intention of overwriting vanilla files or behaviors.

 

 

I'm assuming "Eye Type" is the Type 2 equivalent b/c it's near the bottom. So if the heights are different, then I should take that to mean ECE modified those morphs.

 

What about the heavier eyelids on "Eye Shape" (Type 1 equivalent)? I should take that to be a vanilla bug?

 

Any chance of providing a -1 option for Type 1 sliders in the future? Or would that require overwriting vanilla code?

 

Link to comment

Another reason why I prefer Enhanced Character Edit is because of rxkx22's great works such as:  Toccata, Seranaholic (Serana) and Bijin Warmaidens.  They were all created with ECE.  And people often like to stigmatize that ECE is only good for creating anime-like characters.  Ignorance is bliss, huh? *smh*

 

To me, RaceMenu has yet to prove itself in that regard.  And to all of the people that say that ECE is obsolete:  some people just don't need all of the extra bells and whistles that RM provides to make great looking characters.  Some people just prefer to keep it simple.  What's wrong with that?

 

because people hate to try new things.  Racemenu v3.0 blew ECE to extinction.  From face sculpting to import any faces, even ECE stuffs. I was using ECE for over year, after switching to Racemenu.  Never went back and now with v3.0.  All i can say is ECE whatttttttttttttt ?  what's that ?  

 

my take on Toccota using Racemenu v3.0 and makeover.

2s7i2yd.jpg.

 

Link to comment

I use RaceMenu because I do not like the way ECE changes the vanilla face morphs.  I can't speak on interface vs. interface, since ECE only lasted about ten minutes before I started deleting it.  The only thing I use RaceMenu for is the vanilla sliders and maybe some last minute color tweaks.  I make my own presets in the CK, custom skin and hair color palettes, optional head parts, stand alone NPCs and so on.  I really don't 'need' RaceMenu other than vanilla chargen being so terrible.  Oh, and ECE breaks Ethereal Elven Overhaul and that is one of my must have mods.

Link to comment

I use RaceMenu because I do not like the way ECE changes the vanilla face morphs.  I can't speak on interface vs. interface, since ECE only lasted about ten minutes before I started deleting it.  The only thing I use RaceMenu for is the vanilla sliders and maybe some last minute color tweaks.  I make my own presets in the CK, custom skin and hair color palettes, optional head parts, stand alone NPCs and so on.  I really don't 'need' RaceMenu other than vanilla chargen being so terrible.  Oh, and ECE breaks Ethereal Elven Overhaul and that is one of my must have mods.

 

you too ha ?  yep that's when i switched to Racemenu and im glad i did.  Can't live without EEO, such an amazing mod.

 

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. For more information, see our Privacy Policy & Terms of Use