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Site Rule Changes


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#21
Jexsam

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Since we're far past the point of discussing the changes or the change being reversed anyway, here's how I'd've handled it.

Separate subforums for requests under the specific mod discussion categories. Keeps discussion/WIP category clean, related requests all in one place, same basic premise as "one request thread to rule them all".

All REQ threads in the REQ subforum auto-deleted after 60 to 90 days, no questions.

If a thread evolves into a WIP, REQ thread is locked/deleted, new WIP thread appears in discussion/WIP page.

I get that it's a much larger footprint than one master request thread, but think about it. A single request thread is going to see an constant influx of new requests, meaning old ones get buried, maybe five, ten, twenty pages back. Requests that start to make headway to becoming a WIP get muddled among all the constant new requests, making them hard to follow. And worst of all, requests in a thread like they are now can't be titled or glanced over individually to gauge interest like you can with threads, meaning someone who's interested in taking up an idea for whatever reason would have to look through the whole thread if they wanted to be thorough, but in reality might look over the last ten pages, maybe. A subform would have far fewer pages of thread titles to browse, you'd see more REQs per page than in a thread, and if a REQ starts taking off, new posts will keep it on the front where it can be discussed until it goes WIP.

A single thread is less stress on the site and far less maintenance, surely. But it's a terrible way to store and organize ideas for potential pickup by a willing author, which is kind of a shitty thing for a site that encourages people to pick up and do it for themselves to do. Remember, it's not just experienced modders who go occasionally browse requests; newbies do it too, maybe looking for an easy idea to start with.
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#22
gregathit

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While your argument seems solid at a cursory glance, it falls apart under close scrutiny.  A subform topic would get buried almost as quickly as a post.  Who is going to bother looking through an entire subforum to search for something they "might" want to actually make?  The answer is of course, no one.  Folks will just bump the shit out of their request to make sure it stays on page one and you can kiss tracking things goodbye.

 

Bottom line is 95 plus percent of requests NEVER get filled.  It is kinda ridiculous to even waste time with something like this. 

 

Also it becomes a burden on staff\modders as we would then need to patrol a whole other section under each game and purge old requests, lock threads that did become WIPs or were filled.  We don't need more work right now.

 

If you stop and think about it, you stand FAR better chance of getting an armor\clothing\weapon ported or made if you find a modder that is actively doing conversions of something similar and post in his\her thread.

 

Ultimately, if no one volunteers then it falls back to the person making the request to either give up, or learn to make it themselves.  I would rather see more tutorials and helpful walk-through type threads so that folks can learn to take up modding for themselves and NOT cater to folks who want others to do all the work for them. 


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#23
Ark of Truth

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While your argument seems solid at a cursory glance, it falls apart under close scrutiny.  A subform topic would get buried almost as quickly as a post.  Who is going to bother looking through an entire subforum to search for something they "might" want to actually make?  The answer is of course, no one.  Folks will just bump the shit out of their request to make sure it stays on page one and you can kiss tracking things goodbye.

 

Do it so that if they bump it, it gets removed.


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#24
gregathit

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While your argument seems solid at a cursory glance, it falls apart under close scrutiny.  A subform topic would get buried almost as quickly as a post.  Who is going to bother looking through an entire subforum to search for something they "might" want to actually make?  The answer is of course, no one.  Folks will just bump the shit out of their request to make sure it stays on page one and you can kiss tracking things goodbye.

 

Do it so that if they bump it, it gets removed.

 

 

Except that would be even more freaking work for moderators.  Seriously, stop and think about what that would entail.   10 full time moderators couldn't keep on top of that.


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#25
ritualclarity

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Ultimately, if no one volunteers then it falls back to the person making the request to either give up, or learn to make it themselves.  I would rather see more tutorials and helpful walk-through type threads so that folks can learn to take up modding for themselves.

I second that. :)


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#26
Ark of Truth

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Ultimately, if no one volunteers then it falls back to the person making the request to either give up, or learn to make it themselves. I would rather see more tutorials and helpful walk-through type threads so that folks can learn to take up modding for themselves.

I second that. :)

You need to get users to read the guides first an not many do as they can't be assed to put in the effort to learn.

Maybe it would be a good idea to create a tutorial and guides subforum in the general dicussion area for each game.

Right now all the tutorial and guides for everything are in one place. It's hard to find certain guides sometimes.
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#27
DoctaSax

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Maybe it would be a good idea to create a tutorial and guides subforum in the general dicussion area for each game.

Right now all the tutorial and guides for everything are in one place. It's hard to find certain guides sometimes.

 

 

Yeah, the problem's not a lack of knowledge, but often a lack of organization in how it's all linked on a higher level, where it can be found, where to start, and making sure a guide doesn't assume people already know half the stuff they expected to learn from it. If tutorials are single lessons, we have no curriculum that ties them together. That's no criticism on anybody who's ever written a tutorial; it's just the state of things that there's lots of information here and elsewhere, but it's all over the place without any overarching structure, and rarely written with the complete beginner in mind who has to be led from A to B in order to get to C. And that's the audience: people who know nothing about it. If we tell them to go learn it for themselves, which really is the only realistic solution to see their wishes fulfilled, how do they go about it? Where do they start and where do they go from there?

 

For instance, I wonder how anyone can learn how to script for FNV from just going by the geck wiki's scripting portal. The base syntax is not nearly explained in sufficient detail as it was in the Oblivion CS wiki, and people really need to be told in detail about base forms/references/variables, types of scripts and why you use this for that, the if structure/logical operators/parentheses/efficient script structure/the many things that'll trip you up - long before you introduce them to the many functions. As it is, they'll just gawk at the functions and trip over something small when they try to do something in practice that was never pointed out where and when it should've. (Sounds a little harsh on the wiki guys, maybe - what there is is always welcome of course.)

Something similar can probably be said for other aspects of modding. We can underestimate just how much we've picked up over time that we take for granted, and overestimate the capability of beginners to guide themselves through the learning process. So the guides we need most of all would be about which guides to use to what purpose.


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#28
ritualclarity

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Maybe it would be a good idea to create a tutorial and guides subforum in the general dicussion area for each game.

Right now all the tutorial and guides for everything are in one place. It's hard to find certain guides sometimes.

 

 

Yeah, the problem's not a lack of knowledge, but often a lack of organization in how it's all linked on a higher level, where it can be found, where to start, and making sure a guide doesn't assume people already know half the stuff they expected to learn from it. If tutorials are single lessons, we have no curriculum that ties them together. That's no criticism on anybody who's ever written a tutorial; it's just the state of things that there's lots of information here and elsewhere, but it's all over the place without any overarching structure, and rarely written with the complete beginner in mind who has to be led from A to B in order to get to C. And that's the audience: people who know nothing about it. If we tell them to go learn it for themselves, which really is the only realistic solution to see their wishes fulfilled, how do they go about it? Where do they start and where do they go from there?

 

For instance, I wonder how anyone can learn how to script for FNV from just going by the geck wiki's scripting portal. The base syntax is not nearly explained in sufficient detail as it was in the Oblivion CS wiki, and people really need to be told in detail about base forms/references/variables, types of scripts and why you use this for that, the if structure/logical operators/parentheses/efficient script structure/the many things that'll trip you up - long before you introduce them to the many functions. As it is, they'll just gawk at the functions and trip over something small when they try to do something in practice that was never pointed out where and when it should've. (Sounds a little harsh on the wiki guys, maybe - what there is is always welcome of course.)

Something similar can probably be said for other aspects of modding. We can underestimate just how much we've picked up over time that we take for granted, and overestimate the capability of beginners to guide themselves through the learning process. So the guides we need most of all would be about which guides to use to what purpose.

 

I agree.


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#29
ritualclarity

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Yeah, the problem's not a lack of knowledge, but often a lack of organization in how it's all linked on a higher level, where it can be found, where to start, and making sure a guide doesn't assume people already know half the stuff they expected to learn from it. If tutorials are single lessons, we have no curriculum that ties them together. That's no criticism on anybody who's ever written a tutorial; it's just the state of things that there's lots of information here and elsewhere, but it's all over the place without any overarching structure, and rarely written with the complete beginner in mind who has to be led from A to B in order to get to C. And that's the audience: people who know nothing about it. If we tell them to go learn it for themselves, which really is the only realistic solution to see their wishes fulfilled, how do they go about it? Where do they start and where do they go from there?

 

So the guides we need most of all would be about which guides to use to what purpose.

 

 

Maybe we don't actually need a "guide" exactly. Perhaps we just need a stickies post that has various links to confirmed (functional and accurate) tutorials both on this site and where-ever they might be. Then a brief description on level of skill and content. The OP can be editied as needed based on the input of our various members from skilled (to proofread and verify accuracy and if info is current) to noobies. This can be in an outline structure. Even can contain tutorials for basic tools needed for installing the game. Womb to tomb so to say.

 

As info has been aggregated and linked we can get a better idea of areas that need "attention" and then hopefully one of the more experienced members can either contribute with a post on this info or post a link for the info. Who knows in time we could perhaps even develop our own tutorial series of single lessons or How to.

 

I have actually started collecting some of them and having them in my sig. Useful links that I use(d) Except this would be more in debt and flexible.

 

 


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#30
Adam Jensen

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To be honest, ever since the request thread was made, the adult section per se has become a bit pointless. Rarely do we get new threads and when we do, it's usually threads that get locked because of the request thread. So even though I was one of the people who vouched for the request sub-forum, I take it back.

 

If you guys make a request sub-forum, the adult section will become even more pointless and in all honesty it makes sense. The adult section should already be for that, request and ideas, you take that away and what else goes in there? Given that downloads has its own section and so does sexlab if you create a request sub-forum, the adult section will most probably be empty, except for a few threads.

 

And even then it won't solve the problem, because then someone will complain that there should also be an ideas sub-forum, a mod in progress sub-forum, etc.


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#31
Adam Jensen

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Oh and welcome back CK!


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#32
DoctaSax

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To be honest, ever since the request thread was made, the adult section per se has become a bit pointless.

[snip]

The adult section should already be for that, request and ideas, you take that away and what else goes in there?

 

I also see WIPs there, tips about mods on the nexus that may interest us, other random stuff could go there that completely fits the "generic" mod sections. If it seems like there's nothing much else going on there, maybe that's because few other threads and types of mod discussion ever got a chance to breathe.  If we let open the gates again, those threads will get buried under the daily avalanche of new requests and the bumping of old ones again, as were the download & tech support threads we rescued outta there. If we let requests in the generic mod sections again, that's all the generic sections can ever be about - nothing else can live there.


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#33
nightwolf

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If I detect an avatar or signature with hardcore pornographic content, is it considered trivial or should I report that person? In my opinion it can be quite annoying having an animated ass up my face when reading posts.


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#34
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If I detect an avatar or signature with hardcore pornographic content, is it considered trivial or should I report that person? In my opinion it can be quite annoying having an animated ass up my face when reading posts.

 

Well if you read the rule, I would say trivial as your can just block a user's posts. 

 


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#35
javamonsoon

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It's in a weird way enlightning to read Gregahit's posts here after the exchange we recently had... Timestamps make it even more interesting. Any opinion I'll keep to myself though as we both agreed that the matter was overly discussed. It's merely a personal observation.

 

I never really understood why people want to sit to sit on the chair of appointed moderators. The official SIms 3 forums are riddled with that brand of busybodies. What do they hope to gain? What is their motivation? Do they hope to get an invitation to become a moderator too on the forums they bully? I don't get it. I do understand the desire to keep a forum a forum (if you will), but too much of a good thing...

 

Me, I just want a place where I can share my interest and enthusiasm with likeminded folk and whatever people want to do is fine by me. I'm not a moderator, nor am I my brother's keeper. A lot of water must pass under the bridge before I hit any 'report'-button.

 

A sleeping cat in your lap does wonders for your peace of mind. I can recommend the therapy wholeheartedly. ^^


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#36
gregathit

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Yep, moderating is a non-paying, completely thankless and utterly unsatisfying position.  Myself, I got lured into it due to my love of mods and wanting to help the community.  While it does allow me to help in ways that I could not otherwise accomplish, it also comes with the downside of being in the spotlight at times, and in uncomfortable positions many others.  Something no one but the power mad enjoy.  

 

I have always tried to keep my moderating efforts similar to how an umpire operates in a ball game (yes, I was an umpire for a dozen years).  If folks left the ball game talking about me as an umpire, then most likely I failed at my job (unless the game ended on a close call of course).  Folks should leave talking about the game, not me.  

 

As has been stated, you can't make everyone happy, so you just try to maintain as low a footprint as you can whilst doing moderating, but be consistent and decisive.  Remember that moderators have good days and bad days and are folks just like you.  One thing that separates the moderators of this site with many that I have seen and been a part of over the years is our willingness to discuss things.  Don't agree with an action we took, PM us to talk about it.  Every single one of the moderators here will talk to anyone who is courteous in making an argument against a particular action.  

 

As to me having odd opinions.....well I never claimed to be normal.   :P

Want some fun reading, go back to some of my posts when I first started out here helping folks in the LPK section (a long time ago, in a far away universe).  Some of the advice I posted as I was trying to figure things out, was so wonky it is ridiculous.  I make zero claim to be right all the time.  I make mistakes by the boat load.  Unfortunately I am one of those folks who seem to learn best by touching the red hot stove..... :blush:


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#37
kingkong

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i felt bad when you came out with this no go rule for politics  but i understand it completly as people, users can not avoid to be rude with insolting each other as final arguments(the reality of this world catch up).   And it is a good thing to try and adapt rules it makes the site a live .   i pass the request thing as i find good as it is (most of the requests never gets fullfild anyway).  The most annoing thing is the tutorials realy       it is not the first time that i am discourage from it   exemple my last search was about animations could not find correctly       by google i was sometime redirected to LL  for a tutorial that was buried  and by chance i have found more by reading posts.   even if most of tutorials are sleeping because people does not want to read or do (fast food attitude) i would like to have sections on it  for fast search ,tag      animations, meshes, nifskope CS-CK-Geck  and others no need to do a different one for obliv,FO nor Skyrim  as it is mostly the same. just a suggestion for this precious tutorials that can make an easy life for futur creators.


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#38
javamonsoon

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Yep, moderating is a non-paying, completely thankless and utterly unsatisfying position.  Myself, I got lured into it due to my love of mods and wanting to help the community.  While it does allow me to help in ways that I could not otherwise accomplish, it also comes with the downside of being in the spotlight at times, and in uncomfortable positions many others.  Something no one but the power mad enjoy.  

 

I have always tried to keep my moderating efforts similar to how an umpire operates in a ball game (yes, I was an umpire for a dozen years).  If folks left the ball game talking about me as an umpire, then most likely I failed at my job (unless the game ended on a close call of course).  Folks should leave talking about the game, not me.  

 

As has been stated, you can't make everyone happy, so you just try to maintain as low a footprint as you can whilst doing moderating, but be consistent and decisive.  Remember that moderators have good days and bad days and are folks just like you.  One thing that separates the moderators of this site with many that I have seen and been a part of over the years is our willingness to discuss things.  Don't agree with an action we took, PM us to talk about it.  Every single one of the moderators here will talk to anyone who is courteous in making an argument against a particular action.  

 

As to me having odd opinions.....well I never claimed to be normal.   :P

Want some fun reading, go back to some of my posts when I first started out here helping folks in the LPK section (a long time ago, in a far away universe).  Some of the advice I posted as I was trying to figure things out, was so wonky it is ridiculous.  I make zero claim to be right all the time.  I make mistakes by the boat load.  Unfortunately I am one of those folks who seem to learn best by touching the red hot stove..... :blush:

I'm of the opinion that if a site-owner wants to build a moderating-team, he/she should look in the direction of people who don't want to be moderators to begin with. Though one certainly can find outstanding people in the 'I want to be a moderator'-camp, but in general I think that the motives of those who are jumping at the chance to swing the banhammer are at the very least questionable.

 

I've stated somewhere else on these boards that I don't trust anyone who holds a modicrum of power in an environment where everybody hides behind a username. Because the distribution of equality is unbalanced and the moderator holds all the power without having to look me in the eyes, I hold moderators to quite a high standard.

 

As a user I try to apply common-sense to all my posts, sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail, but I don't have to get it right on first go. Moderators however, do.

 

For the last paragraph, you know, if two people enter a discussion willing to understand eachother from the start, there's nothing that stands in the way of it becoming an discussion from which both sides can take something away. The biggest hurdle is the Internet itself in 99% of it.


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#39
Topaz

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It is good.


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#40
Roggvir

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I apologize if i missed the relevant info explaining how posting on these forums works - i did read the help, site rules, even searched, but maybe i just missed it by accident...

It seems like i am unable to post:
I tried to create a new topic first under "Technical Support - SexLab Framework" and then "SexLab Framework", but i get an error saying "Sorry Roggvir, you are not allowed to post links."
...i suspect it might be somehow connected to the fact that my account was just created, maybe it is to prevent spam - If that is the case, what is it that i must do to be able to create new topics?
(i was also unable to find already existing thread without doubts suitable to post my question)

 

EDIT: SOLVED - apparently i needed 2 posts, now it works.


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