Hats and Hair- How did They do That?

[KoolHndLuke]

I was looking at the vanilla hair in the game when you put on a baseball cap. The top part of the hair disappears. How is that done and why doesn't any hair mod author copy it?

[Pauduan]

There are four slots on the head, the cap only occupies the 'hair' slot. The bit you see below is called 'long hair'. It is a separate headpart and you can see an example in the mod 'Wigs for Apachii Hair', which allows you to see long hair below the hemline of the cap or hat, but not the bit at the top.

 

As an example, take Brenuin - his hair looks totally different with the cap on and off.

[KoolHndLuke]

There are four slots on the head, the cap only occupies the 'hair' slot. The bit you see below is called 'long hair'. It is a separate headpart and you can see an example in the mod 'Wigs for Apachii Hair', which allows you to see long hair below the hemline of the cap or hat, but not the bit at the top.

 

As an example, take Brenuin - his hair looks totally different with the cap on and off.

Yeah. But how does it work? When you put on a hat that uses the hair top slot, what is telling the game to hide the hair top? It doesn't seem to be connected to whatever hat or helmet you put on. It is the hair that is doing it to adjust for whatever u wear. If this could be figured out I can see some improvements in modded hairs and maybe some burned hair off mod.

[Vioxsis]

Its done in pretty much the same way as skyrim.

 

 

 

 

By setting polygon selections in different partitions with the right ID, witch is the equivalent of slots in the CK.

 

30 is for hats/helmets and the top of the hair/head. when 2 things have the same slot/ID the last one added replaces the first.

[KoolHndLuke]

Its done in pretty much the same way as skyrim.

 

 

 

 

By setting polygon selections in different partitions with the right ID, witch is the equivalent of slots in the CK.

 

30 is for hats/helmets and the top of the hair/head. when 2 things have the same slot/ID the last one added replaces the first.

Huh. That seems pretty simple. I wonder why none of the modded hairs use this method? I mean who the hell doesn't like hats?!! Thank you for the explanation!

[Vioxsis]

Huh. That seems pretty simple. I wonder why none of the modded hairs use this method? I mean who the hell doesn't like hats?!! Thank you for the explanation!

Sadly its probably an after thought, or most don't know how its done so just continue in ignorants or with the idea of doing it after all the modelling, rigging and exporting is done, only to find no answer or tutorial about it (sometimes by not knowing what "it" is).

 

Or some only realise after some one comments about it, i mean if you spent a few hours/days/weeks creating hair and getting it working in game is the first thought you have "lets cover it with a hat"?

 

And then to fix it they have to re-edit, rig and export a dozen or more hairs and it just looks like a mountain of work, like swimming in a swamp, nothing but laborious work.

 

Though its not through lack of trying, the image i posted above i uploaded a quite a while ago, it was to help a modder understand what needed to be done for his hair to work properly with helmets.

 

But i guess the worst offender is you don't need it for your hair to work in game, and since you don't need it, nobody mentions it, nobody understands it, and so nobody does it.

 

 

Also fixing models you thought you were finished with is really not fun, at all, not even a little.

And that's why most people mod, for fun.

 

Though once you know it, like you said its pretty simple, i used to use it all the time in skyrim it can be used for a lot of things and was quite powerful once you had a grasp on it, though i never did that many hairs..

 

 

[KoolHndLuke]

 

Huh. That seems pretty simple. I wonder why none of the modded hairs use this method? I mean who the hell doesn't like hats?!! Thank you for the explanation!

Sadly its probably an after thought, or most don't know how its done so just continue in ignorants or with the idea of doing it after all the modelling, rigging and exporting is done, only to find no answer or tutorial about it (sometimes by not knowing what "it" is).

 

Or some only realise after some one comments about it, i mean if you spent a few hours/days/weeks creating hair and getting it working in game is the first thought you have "lets cover it with a hat"?

 

And then to fix it they have to re-edit, rig and export a dozen or more hairs and it just looks like a mountain of work, like swimming in a swamp, nothing but laborious work.

 

Though its not through lack of trying, the image i posted above i uploaded a quite a while ago, it was to help a modder understand what needed to be done for his hair to work properly with helmets.

 

But i guess the worst offender is you don't need it for your hair to work in game, and since you don't need it, nobody mentions it, nobody understands it, and so nobody does it.

 

 

Also fixing models you thought you were finished with is really not fun, at all, not even a little.

And that's why most people mod, for fun.

 

Though once you know it, like you said its pretty simple, i used to use it all the time in skyrim it can be used for a lot of things and was quite powerful once you had a grasp on it, though i never did that many hairs..

 

 Actually I am one of the fools that would be thinking about hats and headgear when making or editing a hair mod. It was kinda surprising to me that there weren't more cool helmet mods for Skyrim. Beautiful hair and cool hats can complement each other quite well IMO. Might you be willing to point at a process I might use to edit models? I know next to nothing about modding in general, but I am going to learn one way or another. I am just trying to get a general idea of the "how".

 

Edit: Never mind- I figured it out.

[Kaitol]

I realize this is something of a necro post but I figured whats the point in making a new thread when there's an existing one talking about exactly what I need. I just wanted to ask if it was possible to do this in any program other than 3ds max, and if so could I get some basic instructions on how? Preferably something like Outfit Studio, Nifskope, or Blender, I don't really have the cash to spend on a professional tool set just to do some minor editing of a few hairstyles.

 

 

[Vioxsis]

38 minutes ago, Kaitol said:

I realize this is something of a necro post but I figured whats the point in making a new thread when there's an existing one talking about exactly what I need. I just wanted to ask if it was possible to do this in any program other than 3ds max, and if so could I get some basic instructions on how? Preferably something like Outfit Studio, Nifskope, or Blender, I don't really have the cash to spend on a professional tool set just to do some minor editing of a few hairstyles.

 

A quick look in outfit studio and it has a segments section (top right) in it you can add segments and then sub segments that can be painted and then have a type assigned to them (the drop down box under the segment list).

No idea if it can do what you want it to but you can at least give it a try.

[Kaitol]

 

Tried messing about for a few hours but couldn't really figure anything out. Took a look in the mod esp and saw a lot of the hairstyles were using an identical file called FemaleHair28Hairline2 for a subpart which looks like a vanilla file for a vanilla hair and is just a super short shave haircut, I assume its whats being used for helmets that totally cover, like flight helmets. Some hairs had one hairline sub part, some had several, although I couldn't really tell any difference between them from just looking in FO4Edit. I'm assuming this has something to do with hairstyles changing appearance on equipping certain types of headgear, but I couldn't really reason out the logic, like what dictates what hairline file gets used for what, couldn't see any sort of separate ID numbers or anything for them in FO4Edit, they were all just tagged as Misc. 

 

At this point I'm pretty much ready to throw in the towel, its taking too much time for what I'd get out of it in the end. I'll just have to find a hair that comes built to work with hats.

[Vioxsis]

In the CK if you look at the armour addon of a hat/helmet that sits on top of the head, you will see it uses biped slot 30 - hair top.

The top of hair has a sub segment assigned to biped slot 30, so when a hat is equipped which also uses biped slot 30 the top of the hair is cropped.

 

In OS there is a segments tab you can add segments in, then you can add a sub segment to that.

you should be able to import a hair and add the segments to it and paint the top of it and assign it to that biped.

 

That being the only thing i not to sure about, the type list has a head/hair in it that might be the selection needed.

Or maybe if different .ssf file is loaded it will change the choices? I can't be sure, i don't use OS to any depth.

Spoiler

 

And hairline is something else entirely, nothing to do with what you want to do.

[KoolHndLuke]

This tutorial is posted in the Commonwealth Cuts posts section- It's what I use to make "hat hair".

[yirtisus]

Sorry to necro this but it's the first time im using custom hair for my character and I was devastated by the fact that this is a common and known issue.

 

So, can anybody suggest quality hair mods (preferably male hair) in which the author paid attention to this?

[KoolHndLuke]

On 2/7/2021 at 4:35 PM, yirtisus said:

So, can anybody suggest quality hair mods (preferably male hair) in which the author paid attention to this?

Answering really late here, lol. But when I scoured through mods for both Skyrim or FO4, I found next to nothing in mods that featured new hairs with hats added as a feature. As Vioxsis mentioned, anyone going to all the trouble to make the hair meshes, textures, then rig them and port them into the game is probably not thinking about further work with hats and helmets. But it's not that hard to edit hair meshes yourself in Outfit studio and X-edit. I left a tutorial under the X-edit applications thread.